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I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

simonhartcher.com

521–530 of 541 posts

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#521
post #256

I want to love framework, and I really do want to get behind their mission, but a few things stand out. First and this is the elephant in the room, it's probably better for the environment to buy a refurbished think pad. The most environmentally friendly product is one that gets reused instead of going to a landfill. The 13-in framework only offers one SSD slot, The expansion Bay offers a nice storage option but thes…

I spent a ton of time researching this. I wasn’t able to find any thinkpads that are relatively lightweight, have a hi res screen, and new CPUs for even close to the price of the framework 13 which can be purchased with a reasonable spec for less than $1100. It’s entirely possible that I missed one. But honestly that also makes me root more for framework - just sell me one high quality product instead of offering 40…

The ThinkPad E14 he mentioned is available with a 120Hz 2880x1800 display.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#522
post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can also just tell them to get an M2 MacBook Air for $800 Yes, you will find that most material problems can be solved by buying more stuff. If they wanted to buy a new laptop, they would have done that. > You'll have to do near zero troubleshooting That's the case now. Meanwhile, with the Macs they use, I have to explain that there's a difference between Intel and ARM Macs, that no, their software won't work i…

> I have to explain that there's a difference between Intel and ARM Macs No you don't? Why not tell your grandma about PowerPC and Motorola 68000 Macs too while you're giving her pointless information about CPUs Apple used in the past. We're half a decade into the Apple Silicon transition. Intel Macs are not relevant to anyone except people who purchased a Mac within a couple years before the M1. > no, their software…

> No you don't? Why not tell your grandma about PowerPC and Motorola 68000 Macs too while you're giving her pointless information about CPUs Apple used in the past.

Yes, I do, when Apple advertises new features in macOS and for whatever reason, they just don't work on their Macs. Why? Because some of their machines are Intel-based and Apple chose not to implement certain features they expect on their Intel hardware.

Similarly, I have to do the same for software. While fat binaries are common, sometimes they end up with ARM binaries that just won't work. Similarly, the ability to run their iOS apps doesn't exist on Intel Macs and they don't know why.

> I... can't even imagine what scenario you could possibly be running into any of this so I don't know how to argue against it.

My family member spent thousands of dollars on software licenses for their business. For years, they could use that software on their Macs, until they couldn't. I'm talking about things like Office and tax software.

Similarly, try using an old macOS version that older Macs get stuck on. You eventually cannot even get a working safe browser anywhere, because the APIs Firefox and Chrome depend on change between macOS versions due to API churn, eventually deprecating old macOS versions altogether when it comes to new releases. Eventually, the entire Mac app ecosystem does this and the only solution is to either upgrade your macOS version through hacks or buy a new Mac with an updated macOS version and then experience that again in a few years.

Then there are driver issues. I have family members that have perfectly good music production hardware that drivers no longer work for. For some of it, it looks like 3rd party companies developed paid drivers for new macOS versions. Same thing with touch screens, had to go down the paid driver route for those, too. That's just not a problem on Linux.

> You describe using a Mac like the black and white "before" footage from an infomercial showing that previously the only way to cut a tomato is smushing it with the side of a dull knife

I mean, that's one way to interpret being honest about my experience as tech support for my family's Macs and other computers over the years. The Intel -> Arm transition + Apple's propensity for API and OS churn affects their users who aren't buying new hardware every time a new version comes out.

> If a Mac is too difficult for someone, Linux is not the solution.

I'd stand by the statement that if a Chromebook would suit a user's needs, so would Linux. Both require a curated experience and there should be no expectation of users setting it up themselves. You can make computers running Linux into solid email/Facebook/Zoom/office/web/etc machines a la ChromeOS, and in my experience, that keeps people happy.

Obviously, Linux is not a universal solution, Macs or other software/hardware might be the right solution. I wouldn't subject musicians in my family to Linux, but it has kept my older family members online and safe.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a failing that I need to pre-empt every situation where I don't want the machine to sleep and run a tool to prevent it from sleeping, when I could usually just say 'don't sleep when I shut the lid'.

That's probably because most people _want_ their laptop to sleep each time they close the lid. The exceptions are really narrow. E.g. if you want your SSH sessions to stay alive, you also need to ensure that you never leave the WiFi coverage.

I don't disagree, but at least give me an option like windows does.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#524
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You edit one line in a file to enable hybrid sleep. Uncomment one line in /etc/systemd/sleep.conf: AllowHybridSleep=true Your Linux installer will also set everything up needed for it. It's also a GUI option in KDE's System Settings.

I wish it would be this simple. In most cases your kernel will tell you it's "locked down" and refuse to hibernate. In my case - on a cutting edge kernel no less with Fedora - it refused to believe that the default disk encryption setup with Swap on encrypted LVM actually is encrypted and locked me out. Linux security bros followed Apple and others here and refused to add any ability for us to configure or tell kerne…

Yeah, kernel lockdown is a shitshow

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Framework doesn't produce it's own CPUs. It buys them directly from Intel. Producing your own CPU is really difficult, if you want it to be competitive with other state-of-the-art CPUs.

They don't need to make their own CPUs for that. Framework can write its own BIOS and ACPI drivers for Windows and Linux to have proper sleep support. But that's more R&D expenditure they probably can't afford. For example, for my home lab, I bought a used Intel 12th gen industrial PC from a specialized Taiwanese embedded systems company, whose BIOS allows very granular control of all sleep states plus individual pow…

I think it's worse than that, at least for the AMD-based Frameworks. Ostensibly, S3 sleep isn't supported by the CPU.

https://community.frame.work/t/responded-how-to-enable-s3-sl...

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#526

Battery life is the only thing stopping me from getting out of the Apple ecosystem. As soon as a viable Linux laptop with "enough" battery life becomes available, I'll make the switch. At that point there's nothing on Apple side that couldn't be done better in Linux (with a bit of work, but that's okay). I travel a lot, and often on standby for work during that time. I need to be confident that when I pull the laptop…

How can LLM inference be done better on non Linux?

I can run models on my 96GB RAM MacBook Pro incredibly well.

As soon as someone tells me how this can be done in Linux, I'm ready to switch.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#527
post #364
post #17

The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…

https://lore.kernel.org/linux-pm/20231114022503.6310-1-kelvi... I authored a patch (I still use it to this day, and I think others do too) that allows this, and sent it to the LKML as an RFC, and was rejected, for some background.

"I've got to warn you that I have an allergic reaction to arguments that start with "the right solution is really hard, so let's pick the easier, worse solution." ;)"

Proceeds to continue enforcing objectively worse solution (evidenced by the existence of this entire thread).

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s see how long DHH & co can keep harvesting low hanging fruit of Linux laptop problems. I’d expect they’ll plateau soon but I would love to be surprised. I’m torn between my instinct to classify anything from DHH as mostly hype, my faith in Linux kernel developers, and my cynicism toward Linux kernel developers.

I will be very surprised if DHH fixes something that hasn't been properly solved in mainline Linux distros for years. (decades?)

Honestly, given my experience from distro hopping, I am certain that collecting solutions across distributions and implementing them in one can go very far. It's almost as if distributions contributors too rarely try out other distributions to then steal what the other distribution does better.

Small enthusiast distributions with a bit of a hype can gain good features in by just pulling in knowledgable users missing things from their previous distro - and they can move a lot faster than the Debians or Fedoras of the world can, no committee decisions to be made first.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For that, you'd actually need a high performance ARM core on one side (and frankly, it's just Apple at that point, they needed well over a decade to get there), and you need some way to make legacy x86/x86_64 applications to run smoothly to get over the chicken-egg effect, and you need some way for all the legacy hardware devices that people plug in into their computers. Apple could do it not just because of their ex…

Well the architectural backwards compatibility issues are Apple's problem really. I was thinking of a pure Arm machine running Linux/BSD/9.

The problem is, without the backwards compatibility and a high-performance core design, the customer base is really, really small - and that's the reason (in addition to Qualcomm having had an exclusivity agreement with MS, but only putting out crap designs) why every attempt of pushing a non-x86 Windows machine so far just completely and utterly failed.

The lower/ultra-low end market is a different thing - just look at the absurdly massive popularity of Raspberry Pi and their clones - but as said these are toys, not capable of being an actually usable general (as in: general population) computing device.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#530

Honest question, how is it possible that Macs are so much better in terms of hardware? Context: I use a MacBook at work and a Lenovo with Linux at home and now I might need to change my personal laptop, but I struggle to find (hardware) reasons why not to buy a MacBook, a MacBook Air is actually cheaper than another laptops with similar specs. There's still the ideology of repairability and openness which still plays…

I think one factor is that other companies (rightfully or not) think they have to offer a range of products that uses lots of different hardware. Looking for a laptop at dell.com, for example, they seem to offer a choice of 7 different CPUs in 5 product lines (Latitude, Inspiron, Dell Pro, Dell Plus, Dell Pro Plus) with at least 3 different graphics cards (Intel Iris Xe, Intel Arc, and HawkPoint - UMA. I also spot a…

I HATE this. I regularly look at really high end products I'll never buy for the fun of it in a "What's the best X that money can buy?" sort of way. And it took me half an hour to find what's the "best" Lenovo laptop money-no-object . Not even ChatGPT could figure it out easily (as far as I can tell it's the P16s). Apple? Well they sell 2 laptops: the MacBook Air and Pro. Select the Pro, spec it out to the max, done. Even the 13/16-inch choice is part of the spec process, and not a separate product.

PC manufacturers, please, for the love of all that is holy, make FIVE laptops: the thin, the tablet-laptop, the "pro", the gaming (the "pro" with RGB) and the workstation (as in Xeon/Quadro). Keep the name you give each of them year-after-year-after-year. And just offer me a lot of CONFIGURATION options to each of these, not a lot of different products.

Dell seams quite reasonable by comparison with Lenovo.

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