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US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

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Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#521

Post by selimthegrim »

eru wrote: post #467
CSMastermind wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of the Triffin dilemma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triffin_dilemma Trade deficits in isolation aren't good or bad but because the US has the world reserve currency it must supply it's currency to the world. This basically forces it to have a trade deficit with everyone which over time can hollow out manufacturing sectors. Making the whole economy vulnerable to shocks and ultimately causing it to fail. It's…

Huh? The US gets to print money for free. They don't even need to have printer's ink any more, since it's all entries in a database these days. And in return they get real stuff from overseas. And you want to tell me that this is somehow unfair for the US? The US can print an arbitrary amount of dollars, if there's demand for them in the rest of the world. Btw, focussing on dollars is actually a bit narrow. When Amer…

I’m just waiting for the 21st century versions of the ograbme act cartoons complete with turtles

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#522

Post by nosignono »

dylan604 wrote: post #293
nosignono wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with stupidity. Stop painting people as idiots because they exist in one of the most information hostile environments in human history. This isn't some natural state that's unrecoverable. The people you describe have been given a highly addictive media environment tailor made to engender outrage and drive behavior. It shouldn't be a shock when most people cannot resist it. The first step to chang…

> most information hostile environments in human history Is it though? East Germany comes to mind as well as the rest of the Cold War countries behind the Iron Curtain. China seems to be pretty hostile as well. In the US, it is still much easier to find real information that counters the propaganda than it is in any of those other countries. There's no Great Firewall to bypass. You don't even need to do anything anon…

Different kinds of hostility, no lesser in magnitude.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#523

Post by nosignono »

cyanydeez wrote: post #503
nosignono wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with stupidity. Stop painting people as idiots because they exist in one of the most information hostile environments in human history. This isn't some natural state that's unrecoverable. The people you describe have been given a highly addictive media environment tailor made to engender outrage and drive behavior. It shouldn't be a shock when most people cannot resist it. The first step to chang…

The grift economy loves it when the narks are blamed.

A narc is the person who turns in their peers to the police. Did you mean the "marks"?

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#524

Post by djfobbz »

geysersam wrote: post #444
wat10000 wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether tariffs are paid by the consumer is a bit pointless. The incontrovertible fact is that tariffs are paid by someone in the importing country, whether the importing business or their customer or a middleman or some combination. These dingbats are out there thinking that these tariffs will be paid by China or Canada or whatever.

But that's not true, why would it be? Tariffs are paid by someone in the supply chain. It's not obvious that the payer is in the importing country.

"Tariffs are paid by someone in the supply chain" is the most accurate way to put it because it reflects how things really work in practice. Sure, the importer is the one who physically pays the tariff at the border, but that cost doesn't always stay with them. Depending on the situation, that expense can be shared, passed on, or absorbed by others involved in the trade.

For example, if there's a 35% tariff on a $100 item, the importer technically owes $135. But the exporter might lower their price, maybe selling it for $70 instead to help offset the tariff and keep the business deal going. In that case, the exporter is basically covering part of the cost. On the flip side, the importer might just raise the final price and make the customer pay more...or better yet, assume the cost due to intense local competition.

So even though the importer pays the duty upfront, who actually feels the cost depends on how the parties involved respond. That's why it makes more sense to say someone in the supply chain pays. It's not always the same person every time.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#525

Post by fennecbutt »

Why does the U.S. think they're so special?

Imagine if Taiwan/TSMC or even ASML were acting this childish. Refuse to sell chips or modern chip making technology to American companies = America would probably go to war with Taiwan or the Netherlands lmao. One trick pony.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#526

Post by h3lp »

cherryteastain wrote: post #32

Tariffs kinda make sense when you have a deficit in a widely available item. Big trade deficit with Bangladesh? Sure you can buy cheap textiles from Thailand or Vietnam or something. Unfortunately this approach does not work when you lack a viable domestic alternative and you're up against a monopoly. What will the US do if TSMC does not blink? Not buy TSMC made chips? Obviously that is impossible, so the logical con…

It occurred to me that tariffs are really a backdoor way of introducing consumption tax (aka sales tax, VAT, etc). It has been a conservative policy goal for many years, as the conservatives believe that income tax penalizes entrepreneurship, but the politics make it virtually impossible to switch to because consumption tax is regressive, and it is a huge change. The tariffs debate and the general political atmosphere created a misdirection, resulting in both income and consumption tax being with us now. The next development will be the politicians discovering to their horror the high levels of taxation, and abolishing the income tax. Brilliant!

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#527

Post by robocat »

delfinom wrote: post #276
cyphertruck wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It actually wouldn't. The sale price will be pretty close to the current market price, maybe %10 more. If the Government kicks in funds to underwrite the deal (say a loan to TSMC) then the deal would likely happen exactly at market price. That means investors who sell are getting the current low market price or a little bit higher--- they will still be down the massive amount. This is really bailing out current manag…

But TSMC isn't a design house. Intel has both fab and design. TSMC's management could only help out on the fab side.

TSMC was founded on the principle of never doing design. The promise to never steal customers from their clients.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#528

Post by geysersam »

wat10000 wrote: post #516
SirMaster wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why would they if they don't have a competition on price without a tariff?

Why wouldn’t they have competition?

Even if you assume perfect competition costs like tariffs can be passed back to producers.

Imagine a demand and a supply curve. From the perspective of a producer outside the country the tariff effectively shifts the demand curve, but doesn't affect supply. That's going to lead to a lower price at equilibrium.

Of course, from the perspective of the consumer it's the opposite situation, the supply curve shifts which leads to a higher price at equilibrium.

Both happen simultaneously, who pays most of the tariff depends on the elasticity of the supply and the demand

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#529

Post by nswest23 »

nosignono wrote: post #207
tw04 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>so the logical conclusion is that American consumers will end up paying the tariffs. That’s been the point all along… they are significantly raising taxes on the bottom 90% of Americans and most are too stupid to even understand it. Gotta pay for those tax cuts for the wealthy somehow.

It has nothing to do with stupidity. Stop painting people as idiots because they exist in one of the most information hostile environments in human history. This isn't some natural state that's unrecoverable. The people you describe have been given a highly addictive media environment tailor made to engender outrage and drive behavior. It shouldn't be a shock when most people cannot resist it. The first step to chang…

Stop infantilizing them and taking away their agency.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#530

Post by MrMorden »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #186
taylodl wrote: post #21

I'd tell the bully "no deal" if I don't get controlling interest, and thus full control of the board.

As much as I'd like to see bullying firmly rebuked, I'm not sure that approach would work here. Because even if TSMC managed to get that initial deal, they'd still be at risk of Trump revisiting it.

Whatever he agrees to today, he'll do something different tomorrow. You can either tell him where to put it or not.
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