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The Rise of Whatever

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Re: The Rise of Whatever

#521

Post by johnnyanmac »

bruce511 wrote: post #74
ako wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scare for most people is that AI isn't better tools, but outsourced work. In the past we would create our own products, now other countries do this. In the past we did our own thinking and creative activities, now LLMs will. If we don't have something better to do we'll all be at home doing nothing. We all need jobs to afford living, and already today many have bullshit jobs. Are we going to a world where 99.9% o…

Personally I think your basic premise is false, hence your conclusion is false. >> We all need jobs to afford living In many countries this is already not true. There is already enough wealth that there is enough for everyone. Yes, the western mindset is kinda "you don't work, you don't get paid". The idea that people can "free load" on the system is offensive at a really deep emotional level. If I suggest that a thi…

>If I suggest that a third of the people can work, and the other 2 thirds do nothing, but get supported, most will get distressed [1]. The very essence of US society is that we are defined by our work.

Sure, I'd be down for it. But I think that's less realistic and instead the government will make my country try to make for a rise of feudalism instead. Except most will starve. it will make the great depression seem quaint in comparison.

>And yet if 2% of the work force is in agriculture, and produce enough food for all, why is hunger a thing?

I'd love to know the answer too. I think we both know the true answer, though.

>I'm not suggesting equality or communism. I'm suggesting a bottom threshold where you get enough even if you don't work.

That's the issue. Even right now, we don't get enough even if you do work full time. Living is unsustainable. How is the problem going to get better, especially when those who would have to pay will instead lobby to not pay out to the people?

Re: The Rise of Whatever

#522

Post by johnnyanmac »

bruce511 wrote: post #376
ako wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In live in europe, so understand some of it, part of my family comes from eastern europe, so have also seen that form of communism in the past. Living on welfare in the Netherlands is not a good life, and definitely not something we should accept for the majority of the people. Being retired on only a state pension is a bad life, you need to save for retirement to have a good life. And saving takes time, that's why y…

I am not saying that the reality exists. I'm saying that the blind acceptance of the status quo does not allow for that status to be questioned. You see the welfare amounts, or retirement amounts as limited. Well then, what would it take to increase them? How could a society increase productivity such that more could be produced in less time? Are some of our mindsets preventing us from seeing alternatives? Given that…

>Are some of our mindsets preventing us from seeing alternatives?

no, just corporate greed and political corruption. If we wanna change that, words won't do at this point.

>Given that society has reinvented itself many times through history, are more reinvention possible?

Yes, and through what catalyst has society reinvented itself? Reasonable discourse to a civil population appealing to emotion and reason? A sudden burst of altruism to try and cement a positive legacy?

It will reinvent itself eventually. Definitely in my lifetime. I don't know how many of us will survive to see the other side.

Re: The Rise of Whatever

#523

Post by johnnyanmac »

thedevilslawyer wrote: post #473
ako wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scare for most people is that AI isn't better tools, but outsourced work. In the past we would create our own products, now other countries do this. In the past we did our own thinking and creative activities, now LLMs will. If we don't have something better to do we'll all be at home doing nothing. We all need jobs to afford living, and already today many have bullshit jobs. Are we going to a world where 99.9% o…

Assuming that's going to happen (outsourcing), what's wrong with that? If you're a nationalist, your worry is obvious enough, but if you're a humanist, then it's wonderful that the more downtrodden are going to improve their station, while the better off wait for them.

That's not humanism, that sounds closer to utilitarianism. Humanism is about each person reaching their full potentil.

I don't think the outsourcees are reaching their full potential being paid $2/hr to make American corporations billions. They are simply going to survive and up themselves to a liveable standard.

Re: The Rise of Whatever

#524

Post by johnnyanmac »

chrismorgan wrote: post #329
jjcob wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's not that important? Taking 5 seconds vs 2 seconds to type a name is probably not that much of a difference? Especially when most of the time you are typing stuff that you need to ask how to spell anyway?

It’s not five seconds versus two; it’s fifteen, and with more mistakes remaining at the end (which will sometime waste hours down the line). Because your inferior typist can’t keep up with the phone number being told them, and lose their place in the digits; and are having to concentrate so much on their typing that they don’t correctly interpret what you say to them; and so on. It’s a compounding effect. Poor typist…

Not to be be too caustic, but that above commenter really did embrace the whole spiriton on why "Whatever" is rising. That utter numbness to how inefficient this method truly is is a symptom (which is odd, since these sorts of topics are fixated on optimizing workflows).

We seem to value the actual craft less and less with each passing day. so everything slows down overall.

Re: The Rise of Whatever

#525

Post by jjcob »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #524
chrismorgan wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not five seconds versus two; it’s fifteen, and with more mistakes remaining at the end (which will sometime waste hours down the line). Because your inferior typist can’t keep up with the phone number being told them, and lose their place in the digits; and are having to concentrate so much on their typing that they don’t correctly interpret what you say to them; and so on. It’s a compounding effect. Poor typist…

Not to be be too caustic, but that above commenter really did embrace the whole spiriton on why "Whatever" is rising. That utter numbness to how inefficient this method truly is is a symptom (which is odd, since these sorts of topics are fixated on optimizing workflows). We seem to value the actual craft less and less with each passing day. so everything slows down overall.

What I was getting at was that maybe typing speed is not the bottleneck. You have to look at how much time the clerk spends typing vs. eg. talking to the customer, clarifying details, explaining the process, reviewing documents, etc. If they spend 5% of their time typing, then even speeding up their typing speed by a factor of 5 will only lead to a 4% speedup, assuming they are fully booked (ie. no wait time between clients).

Re: The Rise of Whatever

#526

Post by BlueTemplar »

liendolucas wrote: post #296
gyomu wrote: post #10

Broadly agreed with all the points outlined in there. But for me the biggest issue with all this — that I don't see covered in here, or maybe just a little bit in passing — is what all of this is doing to beginners, and the learning pipeline. > There are people I once respected who, apparently, don’t actually enjoy doing the thing. They would like to describe what they want and receive Whatever — some beige sludge th…

I absolutely agree with you, it is like having human beings fed constantly whatever their want into their minds for free, effortlessly, without knowing nothing at all. Getting the whatevers ready for consumption. Perhaps this will lead to a new generation where everyone is the "expert novice". It's killing the accumulative and progressive way of learning that rewards who tries and fail many times before getting it ri…

Charles Stross' Accelerando's 3rd chapter (2002) has a fascinating take on it by exploring what happens when someone's 'exocortex' is stolen :

https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/fiction/acceler...

Also to the thief that tries to wear it.

Set a few years from now.

Re: The Rise of Whatever

#527

Post by autumnstwilight »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #515
autumnstwilight wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I learned Japanese by painstakingly translating interviews and blog posts from my favorite artist 15+ years ago, dictionary in hand. I also live and work in Japan now. Today I can click a button under the artist's tweets and get an instant translation that looks coherent (and often is, though it can also be quite wrong maybe 1/10 times). In terms of the artist being accessible to overseas fans it's a great improvemen…

I'd say a 10% error rate is quite drastic for spoken communication. Can you imagine if you lost 10% of the context for the comments here on HN? I don't know, I feel like one of the worst things to do on the internet is to miscommunicate. And that can be hard enough with 2 native speakers (I just had a response completly blow up on me because they assumedly took my comment the wrong way). >but I do wonder if I had gro…

As a fan who can read both languages, the ~10% error rate does concern me, since it's coherent-looking enough that many fans don't seem to seek out or share fan translations anymore, but still has a definite potential to blow up in a misunderstanding. However, there's not much I can do about it.

Re: The Rise of Whatever

#528

Post by sirwhinesalot »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #519
sirwhinesalot wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your last point is very reductionist. Nearly every country ends up in a voting situation where only 2 parties can realistically win. A diverse parlament results in paralysis and the fall of government (happened in my home country multiple times). The two parties that end up viable tend to be financed quite heavily by said wealthy, including being proped by the media said wealthy control. The more right wing s…

> Nearly every country ends up in a voting situation where only 2 parties can realistically win. Not necessarily. That's a result of first past the post, not of voting in general. ranked choice voting solves a lot of this extremism 2 party system. The dominant parties need to at least pretend to appel enough to moderatism that a 3rd party isn't outvoting both of them. >Many people understand this and it is barely par…

> Not necessarily. That's a result of first past the post, not of voting in general. ranked choice voting solves a lot of this extremism 2 party system. The dominant parties need to at least pretend to appel enough to moderatism that a 3rd party isn't outvoting both of them.

Yup, we really need to fix this problem in many countries. Ranked choice is a great idea that should be pushed for.

> So the right wingers never really cared about inflation, egg prices, and the job market. I wish I could pretend to be shocked at this point.

That was my perception of it at least. I'm not a US citizen. Job market might have been a big one but even that is partially social as a rejection of globalism.

Re: The Rise of Whatever

#529

Post by immibis »

layer8 wrote: post #411
dalemhurley wrote: post #111

> "live in some futuristic utopia like the EU where banks consider "send money to people" to be core functionality. But here in the good ol' U S of A, where material progress requires significant amounts of kicking and screaming, you had PayPal." I remember when PayPal came to Australia, I was so confused by it as I could just send money via internet banking. Then they tried to lobby the government to make our bankin…

In the EU, the value proposition of PayPal is (1) that it it hello instantaneous instead of taking one or two days like a regular bank transfer, and (2) it doesn’t disclose your banking info to the other party. The first one is now finally being obsoleted by SEPA instant payments.

(3) steals your money at random without warning

Re: The Rise of Whatever

#530

Post by immibis »

m0wer wrote: post #325
fsh wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's much worse, the maximum on-chain transaction rate is something like 7 per second. Also the time intervals between blocks have a huge spread, so it can take more than an hour for a transaction to be confirmed if you are unlucky. This is obviously impractical, so people came up with schemes such as Lightning to avoid touching the blockchain as much as possible. Of course this makes it much more difficult to judge…

Blockchains don't scale. But that's a feature, not a bug. Great protocols are built in layers. You have decentralized instant settlement for an average of 0.005% even for micropayments with the Lightning Network (another protocol built on top of Bitcoin). That's orders of magnitude away from the settlement time and resilience of the current payment networks.

This might be the first time I've heard the argument "it's great that my project is shit because a lot of great things are layers on top of shit"
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