521–530 of 1001 posts
> ABSOLUTELY NO C++ in the kernel EVER. But Rust is totally fine.
stance? It seems pretty absurd when you consider the closer similarity between C and C++ (and the more straight-forward migration path from C to C++), and the fact that GCC supports C++ (even recent vintages) natively on many more architectures.
I've been saying this for years now: the rust4linux folks are putting so much effort into trying to upstream their work, seems like they should instead put that effort into maintaining a fork. Arguably it would be less hours spent porting than arguing with humans. Certainly more pleasant! Then one of two things will happen: * Rust will prove its worth and their fork will be the better operating system. Distros will s…
I think you're discounting the very real damage that would be done by Linux a project controlled by Linus and a community being replaced by Linux a project controlled by Google/Samsung/Redhat/Microsoft. I'm afraid that this is what is going to happen with the Linus tree effectively rejecting rust drivers by subjecting anyone attempting to upstream rust code to persistent bullying, but I don't want it to happen.
Can they do that to openssl instead?
Thank you.
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I feel the exact same. Marcan has done amazing work, and his random blog entries etc have saved me hours of debugging time in the past. But jeez, it is really painful to see him say absolute nonsense like "If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas." - he has gotta Stop Posting and keep those kinds of thoughts away from his keyboard.
It just ("just") sounds like he's out of alignment with the kernel development process. That shouldn't be too surprising - I mean, its an old project with a whole lot of technical baggage. Projects tend to slow down over time. And that is legitimately really frustrating when you want to shake things up or push for change. I would be rubbish as a linux kernel developer. I have the wrong temperament for it. There's a r…
You're right.
To fit with historical "linux culture" he needs to be much more aggressive and rude.
He needed to lead with something more inline with linux project leadership's examples, perhaps something like: Christoph " ... should be retroactively aborted. Who the f*ck does idiotic things like that? How did they noty die as babies, considering that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on?"
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I've said this before, but the rust community really seems to attract the most toxic and drama-thumping types as their icons. I'm not really sure why such types are drawn to it.
This. From shaming everything else as either slow or unsafe to rewrite the universe, the Rust community makes it hard for new comers to consider the language by its merit. But the good thing is, the hype has settled down and Rust has found its niche. It’s not tackling Go or Python anytime soon and competes in a different plane. Zig is another great alternative for someone like me who never found Rust a pleasant langu…
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Said Intel employee needs to follow their own advice. https://chaos.social/@sima/113961285815637787 > when you're that harmful with your calling out, eventually I'm going to be fed up, and you get a live round shot across your bow and if that then causes you to ragequit, because you can't actually deal with the heat you've been dishing out coming back around the corner: fuck off >or as Dave put it "Being toxic on the…
This seems like a perfectly reasonable response given Hector's prior comments. Pushing someones buttons until they explode and then pointing out they exploded isn't the indictment people think it is.
The meaning of
> "Being toxic on the right side of an argument is still toxic, [...]"
Is very straightforwards. Toxic behavior is toxic behavior. Sima shouldn't lash out in "toxic" ways even if she thinks she's right.
Otherwise shouldn't Hector be given grace because "his buttons were pushed until he exploded"?
Like, you fundamentally can't have it both ways. Excuses for Sima's comments work for Hector. Condemnations of Hector's comments apply to Sima. Anything else is a double standard.
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> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor That doesn't really have anything to do with Rust; but with Hector's behaviour. Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against…
> Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. I'm no where near in the loop on this, but that sounds incredibly toxic. Are there some good links to summarize this? EDIT: OK, these are fully enough to allow me to understand the issue. Marcan: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc…
That's just manipulative. Maybe it's just a moment of frustration and they'd take it back eventually, but blackmailing people with social drama is not cool. That's what X and Reddit is for.
> Rust folks: Please don't waste your time and mental cycles on drama like this [...] they know they're going to be on the losing side of history sooner or later.
That sounds very cult-like, doesn't it?
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> Hellwig's argument was nothing more than "there shouldn't be a second language in the kernel". Which is a valid viewpoint. Let's not pretend that's not a technical argument. Having different technical views from yours isn't a crime, legally or morally. > And Linus has already approved Rust in the Linux kernel, so what's the problem? As an experiment, as clearly stated in the kernel docs. It's still up to the whole…
It is not a valid reason to reject a patch when the decision to include the second language in the kernel has already been made.
It's valid for maintainers to reject a patch even if you disagree with the reason. Repeatedly causing social media storms to "shame" them for doing so, Marcan's own word BTW, isn't.
Rust is young and efforts to use it in kernel programming is even more so. It's completely understandable for wanting to take things slow and not be too quick to put it in places where there would be no going back. Everyone should at least be able to recognize that this concern exists, regardless of their opinions on Rust.
There will be a similar drama when Zig reaches 1.0. There will be a bunch of Ziggers trying to get it into the kernal. The Rust fad is already slowing down. Maybe it's a good idea to wait 10-15 years before trying to rewrite the universe in a "memory safe" language and pushing that upstream.
Zig is at least better impedance matched to C. Procedural and relatively small conceptually. Simple interop. Rust feels closer to C++ than C.
The Rust ecosystem never clicked for me the way Go or Zig did. But I work with I/O-heavy distributed systems, where Go outshines Rust in most cases, so that’s what I use the most.
Systems programming is a different beast, though, and I’m glad the push for rewriting everything in Rust has lost its initial momentum while Zig is emerging as a strong contender. Even then, I wouldn’t want Ziggers to start pushing things upstream into the kernel anytime soon.
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I'm usually very critical of how Torvolds treats the people around him and the culture he maintains but this is a rare case when I'm not really against Torvalds on this. I've had to remove Hector's postings from my feeds because he just constantly bitches and complains about pretty much everything. He's capable, smart, and is doing more than anybody ever will for Apple hardware. But he desperately needs to Stop Posti…
I've said this before, but the rust community really seems to attract the most toxic and drama-thumping types as their icons. I'm not really sure why such types are drawn to it.
First of all because we're talking about the kernel community here, which was incredibly toxic and dramatic long before Rust even existed. Linus has chilled out in the past few years but that legacy isn't entirely gone.
C++ drama has nearly come to fistfights at conferences, and the only reason that doesn't get talked about more is that the toxicity stays mostly on private (not public) mailing lists as a result of the more insular nature of that ecosystem. Nowadays you have a lot of people just quitting over things like the fact that a member of the standard committee was convicted on CSAM charges.
There are plenty of "C supremacists" in the tech influencer community and the maintainer mailing list of every distribution.
And streamers like PrimeTime that eagerly jump on every opportunity to shit on Rust and actively dump gasoline on every flareup of drama for ad revenue.
In general, programmers seem to love being elitist about languages and tools. Remember how everyone used to dump on PHP constantly?