Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

ft.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

521–530 of 1001 posts

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#521

Post by _DeadFred_ »

DrScientist wrote: post #358
floatrock wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The railroads drama ended when JP Morgan (the person, not yet the entity) brought all the railroad bosses together, said "you all answer to me because I represent your investors / shareholders", and forced a wave of consolidation and syndicates because competition was bad for business. Then all the farmers in the midwest went broke not because they couldn't get their goods to market, but because JP Morgan's consolida…

> Consolidation and monopoly over your competition is always the end goal. Surely that's only possible when you have a large barrier to entry? What's going to be that barrier in this case - cos it turns out not to be neither training costs/hardware or secret expertise.

Government regulation.

'Can't have your data going to China'

'Can't allow companies that do censorship aligned with foreign nations'

'This company violated our laws and used an American company's tech for their training unfairly'

And the government choosing winners.

'The government in announcing 500 billion going to these chosen winners, anyone else take the hint, give up, you won't get government contracts but will get pressure'.

Good thing nobody is making these sorts of arguments today.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#522

Post by Freedom2 »

buyucu wrote: post #454
bilekas wrote: post #95

> “It’s also extremely hard to rally a big talented research team to charge a new hill in the fog together,” he added. “This is the key to driving progress forward.” Well I think DeepSeek releasing it open source and on an MIT license will rally the big talent. The open sourcing of a new technology has always driven progress in the past. The last paragraph too is where OpenAi seems to be focusing their efforts.. > we…

I'm willing to bet ''ban DeepSeek'' voices will start soon. Why compete, when you can just ban?

Competing is hard and expensive, whereas banning is for sure the faster way to make stock values go up and exec's total package as a result.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#523

Post by marcosdumay »

bbor wrote: post #413
timeon wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US and could get DeepSeek banned in western countries for copyright If US is going to proceed with trade war on EU, as it was planning anyway, then DeepSeek will be banned only in US. Seems like term "western countries" is slowly eroding.

Great point. Plus, the revival of serious talk of the Monroe Doctrine (!!!) in the U.S. government lends a possibly completely-new meaning to "western countries" -- i.e. the Americas...

Only if they do it by force.

Trump has already managed to completely destroy the US reputation within basically the entire continent¹. And he seems intent on creating a commercial war against all the countries here too.

1 - Do not capture and torture random people on the street if you want to maintain some goodwill. Even if you have reasons to capture them.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#524

Post by aerhardt »

Ciantic wrote: post #87

I'm not being sarcastic, but we may soon have to torrent DeepSeek's model. OpenAI has a lot of clout in the US and could get DeepSeek banned in western countries for copyright.

Unfathomable to me that they'd make themselves look so foolish by trying to ban a piece of software.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#525

Post by hedayet »

Beyond the irony of their stance, this reflects a failure of OpenAI's technical leadership—either in oversight or in designing a system that enables such behavior.

But in capitalism, we, the customers aren't going to focus on how models are trained or products are made; we only care about favourable pricing.

A key takeaway for me from this news is the clause in OpenAI's terms and conditions. I mistakenly believed that paying for OpenAI’s API granted full rights to the output, but it turns out we’re only buying specific rights (which is now another reason we're going to start exploring alternatives to OpenAI)

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#526

Post by JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B »

osigurdson wrote: post #211
lemoncookiechip wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about as illegal as the billions, if not trillions of IPs that ClosedAI infringed to train their own data without consent. Not that they're alone, and I personally don't mind that AI companies do it, but it's still amusing when they get this annoyed at others doing the same thing to them.

I think they had the advantage of being ahead of the law in this regard. To my knowledge, reading copywritten material isn't (or wasn't illegal) and remains a legal grey area. Distilling weights from prompts and responses is even more of a legal grey area. The legal system cannot respond quickly to such technological advancements so things necessarily remain a wild west until technology reaches the asymptotic portion…

Illegally acquiring copyrighted material has always been highly illegal in France and I'm sure most other countries. Disney is another example of how it not grey at all.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#527

Post by BeefWellington »

hnlmorg wrote: post #474
827a wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a third possibility I haven't seen discussed yet: That DeepSeek, illegally, got their hands on an OpenAI model via a breach of OpenAI's systems. Its easy to laugh at OpenAI and say "you reap what you sow", I'm 100% in that camp, but given the lengths other Chinese entities have gone to when it comes to replicating Western technology; we should not discount this. That being said, breaching OAI's systems, re-t…

[flagged]

> Because that would be jumping to conclusions based purely on racial prejudices.

Not purely. There may be some prejucide but look at Nortel[1] as a famous example of a situation where technological espionage from Chinese firms wreaked havoc on a company's fortunes and technology.

I too would want to see the evidence and forensics of such a breach to believe this is more than sour grapes from OpenAI.

[1] https://financialpost.com/technology/nortel-hacked-to-pieces

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#528

Post by Vox_Leone »

alecco wrote: post #480
dismalaf wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

What about Brazil.

Brazil's technological environment is stagnant and apathetic. And it has been that way since the tragic explosion that claimed the country's space program. It seems that all of the country's technological activities have suffered the blow. It is possible that now it will finally be able to manufacture its national tier 3 AI, using the outputs of DeepSeek.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#529

Post by fulafel »

wanderingmoose wrote: post #297

There is a lot of discussion here about IP theft. Honest question, from deepseek's point of view as a company under a different set of laws than US/Western -- was there IP theft? A company like OpenAI can put whatever licensing they want in place. But that only matters if they can enforce it. The question is, can they enforce it against deepseek? Did deepseek do something illegal under the laws of their originating c…

What law would be broken here? Seems that copyright wouldn't apply unless they somehow snatched the OpenAI models verbatim.
Post reply on HN