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Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

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Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#521

Post by zlsa »

sunnybeetroot wrote: post #281
tehjoker wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's strange that none of these companies will include a closable cover for the camera. I got one aftermarket. It is very reassuring since no hacking or accidental misclicks on my part can move the cover.

I had a closable cover and someone shut my laptop with enough force that the cover caused the screen to break. Be careful when closing.

Was it a built-in camera cover, or a third-party one? Apple specifically (and possibly other manufacturers?) recommends against third-party covers because the tolerance is so close:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/102177

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#523

Post by tehwebguy »

nine_k wrote: post #305
542458 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are hardwired on Macbooks. From Daring Fireball, quoting an email from an Apple engineer. > All cameras after [2008] were different: The hardware team tied the LED to a hardware signal from the sensor: If the (I believe) vertical sync was active, the LED would light up. There is NO firmware control to disable/enable the LED. The actual firmware is indeed flashable, but the part is not a generic part and there ar…

That's backwards. The LED should be connected to camera's power, or maybe camera's "enable" signal. It should not be operable via any firmware in any way. The led also has to be connected through a one-shot trigger (a transistor + a capacitor) so that it would light up, say, for at least 500 ms no matter how short the input pulse is. This would prevent making single shots hard to notice. Doing that, of course, would…

If the LED fails the camera should be inoperable too as a security feature

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#524

Post by megous »

ch4s3 wrote: post #457
dghughes wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the true or not Google or other apps listening then you see ads based on that conversation. I think it's true since far too many times obscure things I've spoken about appear in ads soon after the conversation. So yes I'd say a mic blocking feature you can confirm is working, blocking, is needed.

> I think it's true since far too many times obscure things I've spoken about appear in ads soon after the conversation People have been making claims like this since at least the early 90s, about TV then, and no one ever credibly claims to have worked on something like this. I've worked with purchased ad data and I've never seen this data or anything that implies that it exists. It seems far more likely that its a t…

Yeah, we're well past a point where "phones" have NPUs powerful enough to locally process "sensor" input and produce decontextualized probabilties of potential interests.

It's going to happen sooner or later and people will accept it, just like they accepted training of AI models on copyrighted works without permission, or SaaS, or AWS/PaaS, or sending all their photos to Apple/Google (for "backup").

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#526

Post by megous »

criddell wrote: post #54
larusso wrote: post #4

I assumed that most if not all of these webcam LEDs are wired in series with the power to the camera itself. Which then makes it impossible to disable them. Who designs this LED to be software addressable?

Does that mean if the LED dies the camera is dead?

Yes, and it would die rather quickly if it would be a typical low power 2mA LED. Cam sensors can consume quite a bit of power, certainly more than 6mW at 3.3V when active (easily 200-500mW). Even if it would not die, it would be irritating, because light intensity would vary with power consumption of the sensor module.

Nobody sane would hopefully design it this way. :)

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#527

Post by megous »

lukan wrote: post #408
MarcusE1W wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Pinephone has a switch for the microphone and also my Pinebook Pro laptop. But I also would agree that this is exotic hardware.

"But I also would agree that this is exotic hardware." No shit. How is the current state btw? I suppose still not ready to be a daily driver to replace my normal phone?

Kernel is in "maintenance and focussed on upstreaming" mode for a few years already, after getting nearly full HW support about 2-3 years ago.

As for phone feature, reliability of that depends on reliability of firmware of the modem, which was always shaky.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#528

Post by Grimblewald »

protomolecule wrote: post #458
Grimblewald wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, in fact i have no built in mic or camera, and theyre unplugged when not strictly needed.

You also have your smartphone with its microphone and cameras.

true, and it's a big harder to deal with if you use stock OS.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#529

Post by ch4s3 »

megous wrote: post #524
ch4s3 wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's true since far too many times obscure things I've spoken about appear in ads soon after the conversation People have been making claims like this since at least the early 90s, about TV then, and no one ever credibly claims to have worked on something like this. I've worked with purchased ad data and I've never seen this data or anything that implies that it exists. It seems far more likely that its a t…

Yeah, we're well past a point where "phones" have NPUs powerful enough to locally process "sensor" input and produce decontextualized probabilties of potential interests. It's going to happen sooner or later and people will accept it, just like they accepted training of AI models on copyrighted works without permission, or SaaS, or AWS/PaaS, or sending all their photos to Apple/Google (for "backup").

I really question the commercial value of that kind of data. Credit card data has a lot more to do with intent to make future purchases than any keyword you might spit out verbally or in a search engine.

Re: Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video, demonstrated on ThinkPad X230

#530

Post by lxgr »

WalterBright wrote: post #294
lxgr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cameras and microphones and write enable must have physical switches, not software ones. When will people learn? Your preferences are not everybody's. Personally, I'd be totally fine with a camera and microphone LED that is guaranteed to activate whenever there is power/signal flowing from either. > Me, I unplug the camera and mike when not in use. That's a bit hard to do on a laptop that has both built in.

> guaranteed I used to design airplane parts and systems. A guarantee isn't worth squat. Being able to positively verify it is what works. You're right that I don't use a laptop for videoconferencing. I wouldn't use the builtin mike and camera anyway, as a 5 cent microphone can make it hard for the other party to understand you. I use a semi pro mike. If you're in business, I recommend such a setup.

I meant "guaranteed" in the sense of "ensured by design", not in the sense of somebody making a promise. Besides that:

> Being able to positively verify it is what works.

How do you positively verify that a device only contains the microphones you're aware of?

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