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California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones
521–530 of 553 posts
Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones
#522Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it would make sense to put into place opportunities for gifted students and high achievers without regard for where they live or come from. Quite obviously. That's what's being strip-mined at the moment. I, and my peer group from "back home" would have had zero chances in life without these programs. We were not well off, and my peers did not come from families that had anything more than strong parenting - almost…
Generally I agree with you. The part where I disagree is the 'why' and the 'who'. There are a number of very strong forces (aka lobbying groups, aka decisions like 'no child left behind') doing their best to destroy the public school system. By making this conversation about gifted vs not gifted, we are again distracted and pitted against ourselves. Public schools should be well funded and funded in an egalitarian ma…
Surprisingly, the best funded schools are not the ones that are in good places to live. Baltimore city public schools were $22k/student. Howard county was $20k for the same time.
Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones
#523Earlier quoted context omitted.
In Seattle, there's actually a test you can take to get you into the "HCC" program which is the gifted program in Seattle Public Schools. Seattle, however, has been trying (successfully) for years to dismantle it. So even if you pass the test, there's not very many places that you can go to get these services.
I'm not so certain that a test like that is proof of anything other than that someone has the resources to study for that test. Seattle's system seems to have been a magnet program (where such tests are maybe appropriate) masquerading as a gifted program. One has to wonder how many gifted students went underserved so that such a magnet program could be maintained. Sunsetting it for a neighborhood program seems fairer…
Most tests like this are IQ tests, and studying has little impact on IQ test scores, except perhaps showing where you over think things or take too much time. It might get you from 12% to 35%, but won’t get you from 12% to 70%.
Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones
#524I’m from Oregon suburbs right by Intel’s largest campus. I went to all public schools and I was really fortunate that for the most part I was able to intellectually explore and take advanced classes. I took full courseloads in high school instead of having empty periods like most of my peers. I entered college as a a junior credit wise. What I read about California often horrifies me
Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones
#525My personal observation: It’s not gifted programs, it’s the environment. I work on a pretty good science campus in a smallish university town, lots of smart people and so on. There are a few products of gifted programs, but most people just meandered in. What stands out though is that almost everybody has a story of slipping into a subculture where being smart was cool. The chess club, post soviet backyard hacker pad…
The right peer group makes all the difference. I currently live in a rural environment with tiny schools and wonder how I would’ve turned out if that’s where I did high school. I think you need a critical mass of other gifted kids to really set the bar and drive some aspirational goals. If your class has a single gifted kid, they’ll just see that they exceed their peers and coast; if there’s a whole group they’ll pus…
The reality is that, even in a rural shithole like I went to, if you WANTED to learn, their was near infinite opportunity, especially in the 2000s as the internet grew. I didn't have much in terms of AP classes, but we had a vocational wing and that was essential to ensuring everyone could find a passion to really pursue. So many kids that would be seen as slackers or dumb found something they were passionate about in the vocational wing that set them up for a future and gave them a real opportunity.
But if you or your friends decide that learning or striving for education isn't a good thing, you're fucked. You only get one chance to live through public school and so many kids waste it.
All we gotta do is build a society where education for it's own sake is seen as a desirable thing to have. 99% of education is motivation. You cannot learn if you don't want to.
99% of the people I see saying "Why didn't school teach me " were busy sniffing glue in the back of class and not paying attention to the school system explicitly teaching them . We had one kid in honors chemistry who literally snorted garlic powder one day and was not considered smart but his desire to learn meant he was willing to try the harder class, and he did well.
So many kids are raised by parents who fill them with anti-intellectualism and hostility to learning. "When am I ever going to use this" say kids who can't even compare the unit price of competing brands because they didn't want to pay attention in math class. "Why don't the democrats stop " they say despite reading aloud in 6th grade how you need enough votes in the senate to do anything at all. "Nobody needs math" they say when they agree to a predatory 72 month loan on a shitty car.
Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones
#526Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's worth pointing out that childhood malnutrition has a significant negative impact on IQ that persists into adulthood. See: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3796166/ Black children are far more likely to live in poverty than the other three groups presented in the parent comment. I'm really curious what the numbers would be were that not the case. I also wonder how much the rise in black IQ over the decade…
For 2023-2024, among SFUSD students who are 'Economically Disadvantaged': 70% of Asian 3rd graders met or exceeded state standards for math. 18% of Black or African American 3rd graders met or exceeded state standards for math. The difference is similar for all grade levels (3 to 11) and for all years for which I've seen the data. California provides lunch for all children who attend public schools. SFUSD gives first…
In that data set
Compare 2023–24 Detailed Test Results Results by Ethnicity for Economically Disadvantaged - Asian
with
2023–24 Detailed Test Results Results by Ethnicity for Non Economically Disadvantaged - Black
Comparing poor Asians against non-poor Blacks, the Asians do about 3x better. It's a huge difference.
Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones
#527Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones
#528Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones
#529Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not so certain that a test like that is proof of anything other than that someone has the resources to study for that test. Seattle's system seems to have been a magnet program (where such tests are maybe appropriate) masquerading as a gifted program. One has to wonder how many gifted students went underserved so that such a magnet program could be maintained. Sunsetting it for a neighborhood program seems fairer…
Most tests like this are IQ tests, and studying has little impact on IQ test scores, except perhaps showing where you over think things or take too much time. It might get you from 12% to 35%, but won’t get you from 12% to 70%.
Most IQ tests are rife with cultural biases, and can, in fact, be studied for. There's also no indication of what constitutes "passing" for Seattle's test, and how that compares to "passing" in other jurisdictions.
Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones
#530This comment section is going to be a sh*tshow, but I think I agree with the author's central contention that the issue is one of lax definition, and a failure to prevent dilution of that definition by pushy parents. The racism aspect is a chicken-or-egg situation; whether such programs started as a way to allow engaged, mostly white parents to track and separate their kids from students of color, or merely became th…
As soon as we undo 3 centuries of systemic oppression and get the races roughly on par with each other, we'll have an easier time managing G&T programs.
Unfortunately. Happily, solving that solves a whole host of other problems.