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The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

afterbabel.com

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Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the way it was sold by politicians or reported by the media. For example: "NYC to eliminate gifted and talented school program that opponents say segregated students" "this new, equitable model" https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/08/us/new-york-gifted-and-talent...

If you had actually read the article you would have learned that NYC did not actually get rid of the gift and talented program. It just changed how the gifted students were identified and actually...expanded...the program. Quite dramatically. And indeed, the CNN article is the only actual reporting claiming that NYC was eliminating this program. You would think that something of this magnitude would have been reporte…

If you had actually read the article you would have learned that the new program you're talking about is not a "gifted" program at all. It's a new curriculum for all students.

"instead implement an accelerated instructional model in Fall of 2022 that will serve all approximately 65,000 kindergartners"

"Officials plan to train all 4,000 kindergarten teachers in this accelerated learning instruction"

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#522
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife had one kid scream for 10 minutes yesterday and another throw a chair. Another just sat there and didn't do a thing for 7 hours. The Little House/Christmas Story model hasn't been able to work for a long time.

> My wife had one kid scream for 10 minutes yesterday Did she actually allow this kid to disrupt the entire class for 10 minutes? Isn't there a responsibility to all the other students that they should have a reasonable learning environment? I remember being sent to the office for a lot less than that.

Teaching has changed quite a lot since you were in school. And not for the better.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I have bad experience with edTech because when a student is young, he is not disciplined enough to do hard things alone or even just annoying things, and studying can be both. So when they have an app with for example a qcm in front of them, the first times they try to do well, then they learn that if they randomely click buttons, at some point the app validate the answer, even if they didn't read the ques…

There is value in asking the question "when should an individual start studying anyway?" I don't have a link at hand for a discussion of studies comparing no pre-school to "play" pre-school" to "rigorous" pre-school -- and the studies find that the children who go through the rigorous pre-school -- usually 5.5 hours of instruction -- are ahead of their peers in the first grade, even out by third grade, and then fall…

To give more details on the story about my students.. At 14-15 years old, they were unable to perform subtraction correctly with single digit numbers.

All of which because they uniquely used tablets and qcm for all their work. This was a general issue with their capacity of concentration, memorization, and overall learning.

They were able to understand a simple concept, for example symmetries of objects, after a lot of work, but forget about it the following day. I helped them through some years. They are doing better now.. But they didn't catch up what they should be able to do as functioning adults.

If you don't teach to a child to study, he will never do it, studying is not fun per se, if it's not motivated, the random probability that one does it alone is extremely small, and even then. You fail him for not providing him a good education.

Now I hear you, you are talking about preschool and, clearly I think that prematurely forcing them to study has no purpose, they should start studying when they are ready to it, but we do not have a way to know when it is.

I'm on the camp of making study as fun as possible, not by creating random games around the work, but instead by providing lot of context and unexpected examples that motivate the creation of the theory. In this way, I think education can start pretty soon.

I like to have my student study because they are intrigued instead of having them study because they 'need to'. Which is counterproductive no matter the age.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instructional staff doesn't scale. One teacher can teach only one class at a time. The whole idea of EdTech is to scale learning beyond that.

Except it doesn't work, as the subject article demonstrates. At least not for primary education.

It doesn't work yet. The industry will try again and again.

By the way, check out the School product line from Constructor Tech (disclosure: I work for this company on a different product): https://constructor.tech/solutions/schools?tag%5B0%5D=16. They are backed by hard science, and their founder made a scientific career while researching this topic. Evidence shows they are working, especially for kids lagging behind classmates.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did it really improve, though? There's evidence that Colonial/Revolutionary-Era American populace was highly educated, and that education had been gradually going downhill as the United States gradually adopted the Prussian model of education -- an education system designed to produce loyal soldiers and interchangeable worker widgets. There is a strong tendency to recognize "market failure" as a problem -- but it is…

> Did it really improve, though? Yes. > There's evidence that Colonial/Revolutionary-Era American populace was highly educated I've never seen this evidence, but to speculate: probably since the colonist were, well, colonists, and literally building every industry from the ground up, they had to be. After this though, in the 19th century, we knew most people could not read or write. > an education system designed to…

> I've never seen this evidence, but to speculate: probably since the colonist were, well, colonists, and literally building every industry from the ground up, they had to be.

I would strongly recommend looking into John Taylor Gatto's "An Underground History of American Education", at least as a starting point. Indeed, that is where I learned that a literacy drop between WWI and WWII raised eyebrows, but when it came to the Vietnam era, the Army had to investigate "How can so many people fake illiteracy?" and found that the answer was "They aren't faking it."

> After this though, in the 19th century, we knew most people could not read or write.

Now it's your turn: I'd like to see your evidence for this.

> True, but worker widgets who can read.

That's assuming that everyone (including educators and politicians) think reading is important.

>> There is a strong tendency to recognize "market failure" as a problem -- but it is rather rare to see people discuss "regulatory failure"

> I experience the opposite, but granted I live in Texas. The default mode is regulations are bad, and the less the better.

Have you considered the possibility that what is happening in Texas is an attempt to recognize harmful regulations, and weed them out so that people can have more freedom to function?

>> The assumption that all regulations exist because the alternative is worse is deeply flawed

> It's not an assumption, it's an observation. When it comes to education and others.

I cannot help but worry that your observations are cherry-picked. There's plenty of regulatory fail to observe for the few who look to observe it.

> The thing is the free market relies on there being a free market. Not every market can be a free market. That's a problem. I've already explained how education can never be a free market above, [ed: I can't find that explanation] but another example is healthcare. I can't compete in healthcare because of the HUGE time investment in schooling. I also have zero choice as a consumer - I just go to the nearest hospital. There's also no visibility in price because you have to diagnose me first, and that can be wrong or things can pop up later.

> Healthcare is not, and will never be, a free market. Even now the US has a largely socialized healthcare system, it just so happens to be the worst socialized healthcare system. Primarily because we've handed it off to the private sector, who have incentives to actually make it worse. Meaning, insurance thrives when you receive less care. The inefficiency is built into the profit motive, and you can't get around it.

I have both experienced and seen what health care in Great Britain is like, and based on the statistics I hav come across over time, to this day, to suggest Great Britain's health care is better than America's is a big stretch. Something similar can be said of Canadian health care (Pittsburg, PA, has more MRI machines than all of Canada!), and certainly, Cuba's awful health care system should be considered "socialized". To the degree that American health care is better than these systems, it's largely because of the private aspects of it -- and what's worse, to the degree that it's harmful, it is because of government regulations that kill competition. How is it that the law requires that I have the freedom to choose where I want my car repaired, but that I must find an "in-network" doctor? Why can I purchase auto insurance from any company in any State, but I must have insurance sold in my home State? How the heck are these specific kinds of restrictions supposed to make health care better?!?

Many of the concerns you gave about health care apply to the car repair market too -- both in terms of insurance and in terms of car repairs and maintenance. Why is it that mostly-privatized car repair is market-friendly, but health care is not?

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did it really improve, though? Yes. > There's evidence that Colonial/Revolutionary-Era American populace was highly educated I've never seen this evidence, but to speculate: probably since the colonist were, well, colonists, and literally building every industry from the ground up, they had to be. After this though, in the 19th century, we knew most people could not read or write. > an education system designed to…

> I've never seen this evidence, but to speculate: probably since the colonist were, well, colonists, and literally building every industry from the ground up, they had to be. I would strongly recommend looking into John Taylor Gatto's "An Underground History of American Education", at least as a starting point. Indeed, that is where I learned that a literacy drop between WWI and WWII raised eyebrows, but when it cam…

I'm really not going to bother replying any further because I don't think it's worth it. You're fighting and uphill battle here - virtually every country has agreed that having the government control education is a good thing and has been successful.

Conservatives, in the past few years, have fallen into a new sphere of lunacy. Anti-vaccine, anti-education, anti-workplace safety, anti-everything.

I don't have the patience to stamp out every single opposition people come up with.

To me, the "problem" that you, and others, have with education is that the government is involved. Sorry, that is not an argument. Just as blindly supporting something makes one a sheep, blindly opposing something also makes someone a sheep.

Our education is as successful as it is due to our government, and that is not up for debate. I've already explained the problem with free markets and why some services, such as healthcare and education, do not apply to a market and literally cannot.

As a thought experiment, consider what makes a free market a free market. Now consider the feasibility of implementing that into healthcare and education (hint: impossible). Now, assume it is possible, and consider the consequences of it. How many millions of people would need to die before you start caring?

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never seen this evidence, but to speculate: probably since the colonist were, well, colonists, and literally building every industry from the ground up, they had to be. I would strongly recommend looking into John Taylor Gatto's "An Underground History of American Education", at least as a starting point. Indeed, that is where I learned that a literacy drop between WWI and WWII raised eyebrows, but when it cam…

I'm really not going to bother replying any further because I don't think it's worth it. You're fighting and uphill battle here - virtually every country has agreed that having the government control education is a good thing and has been successful. Conservatives, in the past few years, have fallen into a new sphere of lunacy. Anti-vaccine, anti-education, anti-workplace safety, anti-everything. I don't have the pat…

In my experience, it's been just as difficult to convince conservatives to let go of the notion that only government can solve problems, as it has been for liberals. For this kind of "lunacy", you generally have to go full-blown libertarian -- and very few people listen to libertarians.

As for free market health care and education: Are they really impossible, though? And if it's "purely" impossible, is it really impossible to introduce some fundamental free-market reforms, like school choice, or the ability to choose your own doctor?

As for "government-run education being successful" -- ever since I started school in the 1980s, government-run schools have been in crisis mode -- indeed, it's what's led to things like the Department of Education and No Child Left Behind. What's more, there is no evidence things are improving, and plenty of evidence that it's been degrading over time.

How many children's futures are you willing to cut off at the kneecaps until you finally admit that government education, particularly in the United States, has serious problems?

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That part was clear. It was when you started opining on “what’s better” that I felt you stepped way way out of your area of expertise. You really have no grounds to say what’s better

I have 100% grounds to say what's been better for me over the 30 or so years of school I've taken, I'm sorry if you're reading more into what I'm saying than what I'm saying. Just like I'll say that spaced repetition seems like a good theory that I'm having trouble (with adhd) putting into practice esp while taking classes and holding down a job. Or that I liked the approach the class took during lectures by talking…

you are absolutely the expert on whats "better for you". Definitely. Maybe i misread your initial comments. I had read it as you were offering "what was better in general" Or maybe its the long line of comments of ignorant people proudly offering their opinions on a topic they are absolutely unqualified too. Apologies. yes you are free to say whats better for you. noone knows you better than you.
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