Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge • Hacker News Board

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#521

Post by mrweasel » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 5:09 PM UTC

zelphirkalt wrote: post #439

Maybe stores should simply be uncoupled with mobile OS. Imagine a store, that has apps for various OS, run independently from the OS' vendor, Google, Apple, whoever. Then we wouldn't have all the issues with the vendors behaving like dictators about what can be on _their_ stores, because it is no longer their stores. Only question: How does it get financed and maintained, if not big tech is behind it?

For this to work in any reasonable manor it should work more like package repos in Linux.

There is absolutely no point to any of the 3rd party app stores, if you cannot install your banking, travel or payment apps from them. Who cares about an EPIC app store, where games are ever so slightly cheaper, if you can't install the app for your government ID from that store?

There needs to be multiple store fronts, with the option of adding different package streams so that any store can carry any app. This is obviously going to be to confusing for the average person and will make the app stores unusable for most.

The whole idea of alternative app stores is idiotic, unless companies and governments aren't being forced to distribute their apps on all of them. Maybe you can have two app stores at the same time, but then I question what we actually gained. I don't want 3rd party app stores because Google and Apple are overcharging, I want them because I don't trust Google and I want to be able to use an Android phone while not giving Google ANY information at all. But I really don't care that Apple and Google are charging developers 30%, I really don't. I have only a few paid apps, and they where price just fine.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#522

Post by myko » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 5:11 PM UTC

ethbr1 wrote: post #25

xnx wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is ridiculous. From Google's reply ( https://blog.google/outreach-initiatives/public-policy/epic-... ): "These Epic-requested changes stem from a decision that is completely contrary to another court’s rejection of similar claims Epic made against Apple — even though, unlike iOS, Android is an open platform that has always allowed for choice and flexibility like multiple app stores and sideloading."

It's probably not a great idea to point at a monopoly, as a defense of one's own monopoly, and claim "Yeah, but he did it worse." Both Google and Apple's platforms need to be cracked open to competition.

> Both Google and Apple's platforms need to be cracked open to competition.

The point is that Google is already open

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#523

Post by kobalsky » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 5:16 PM UTC

hooli42 wrote: post #61

whimsicalism wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, just like how they've done on desktop environments

This is exactly the situation for desktop games right now, something Epic is profiting immensely from. It's an extremely annoying situation for users, having a dozen launcher/store apps around contributing to bloat.

I'm getting a free game from Epic every week for having their launcher installed.

Competition is awesome.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#524

Post by Suppafly » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 5:25 PM UTC

tiledjinn wrote: post #345

kelnos wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don't prevent Apple from facing the same lawsuit or from being covered by the same judgement. I thought Apple did face the same lawsuit, against the same plaintiff, and Apple won.

Better to say Apple failed to lose. The court explicitly left open the question as to whether they are a monopoly. They just didn't provide any meaningful injunctions as a result of that case.

>The court explicitly left open the question as to whether they are a monopoly.

Presumably because that's not a question that generally needs answered. A lot of people growing remembering microsoft getting sued have this flawed idea that monopoly always equals bad. There are plenty of legal monopolies, companies don't get in trouble until they start doing illegal stuff to keep their monopoly. A lot of areas naturally favor a monopoly, that's not illegal or necessarily bad.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#525

Post by talldayo » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 5:26 PM UTC

rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #438

orourke wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been working with React Native and Flutter and every time I have to interact directly with iOS/Android, I find that Android is much easier to work with and feels much better designed from a software/api/config perspective. Where Apple wins, however, imho is in hardware. The iPhone is a masterpiece and users can tell, even ~16 years in. I feel that when Apple finally chokes on hardware, or some player in the Andr…

It’s highly unlikely for Apple to choke on hardware given their cash. And as someone who’s done native for both, Android’s native SDK is a mess that even Android devs actually hate it. Meanwhile, iOS’ SDK is incredibly exhaustive and coherent. I don’t know what your basis is for “better designed software”, but being able to fork a desktop OS from 20 years prior, make it into a mobile OS, then to a tablet OS, then to…

> being able to fork a desktop OS from 20 years prior, make it into a mobile OS, then to a tablet OS, then to a watch and a headset OS, and then have billions of users on it all and make a trillion-dollar company out of it⸺does that not sound like good engineering to you?

Microsoft and Google basically did the same thing, and in neither case it's really a testament to how "good" their respective software is engineered. If the amount of driver cruft on MacOS is anything to go by, the engineering underneath iOS and WatchOS is probably a fucking nightmare in most respects.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#526

Post by mvdtnz » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 5:27 PM UTC

fkyoureadthedoc wrote: post #498

mvdtnz wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's an extremely annoying situation for users Is it? I regularly use Steam, Epic and XBox and occasionally Ubi, Larian and whatever the GoG one is called... and it's fine. It's just another program.

Yeah, it is. I don't use anything except Steam. If it's not on Steam I'm not buying or playing it. Making your game exclusive to one distribution channel is stupid.

How is it "extremely annoying", it sounds like it doesn't even affect you.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#527

Post by Suppafly » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 5:27 PM UTC

zmmmmm wrote: post #219

tmtvl wrote: post #6

Wait, so the Google Play Store, which you can install alternatives to (F-Droid, Aurora, Amazon,...), and where you can easily install apps through other means (such as downloading an APK through your browser and running it from the file manager) is an illegal monopoly while the Apple App Store isn't? Well, I guess Google's market cap is only 2 trillion compared to Apple's 3 trillion, so I guess that's fair.

While I agree with you in principle, in practice Google makes side loading so convoluted and scary that I think they do need / deserve some censure here. The fact you have to go deep into settings, toggle weird settings that tell you how dangerous it is to side load and then it toggles the setting back after you put it on without asking you - this is not all that different to Apple letting you use an alternative paym…

>While I agree with you in principle, in practice Google makes side loading so convoluted and scary that I think they do need

Huh? You download an apk and click a security prompt to allow non-store installations and it installs them, it's not particularly hard or complicated.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#528

Post by r00fus » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 5:34 PM UTC

ethbr1 wrote: post #217

wolpoli wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android has the appearance of an open platform that could accommodate alternate app stores, and so the court comes by with an order to allow alternate app stores. IOS never had the appearance of an open platform, so the court does not have the opportunity to do the same thing. What's the lesson for future leaders in tech companies?

Absent first mover advantage with the iPhone, it's extremely difficult to see Apple ending up where it is, with a closed ecosystem.

There were smartphones before the iPhone. I'm not sure you can label Apple's position as "first mover advantage".

They got where they did by leapfrogging the competition, dominating the supply chain, having incredible customer trust/service (with a sprinkle of Jobs' magic), thus reframing the entire category of smartphone.

It's unclear if anyone has delivered all these together. Google has dominated all other players at the OS level.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#529

Post by fidotron » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 5:37 PM UTC

rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #438

orourke wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been working with React Native and Flutter and every time I have to interact directly with iOS/Android, I find that Android is much easier to work with and feels much better designed from a software/api/config perspective. Where Apple wins, however, imho is in hardware. The iPhone is a masterpiece and users can tell, even ~16 years in. I feel that when Apple finally chokes on hardware, or some player in the Andr…

It’s highly unlikely for Apple to choke on hardware given their cash. And as someone who’s done native for both, Android’s native SDK is a mess that even Android devs actually hate it. Meanwhile, iOS’ SDK is incredibly exhaustive and coherent. I don’t know what your basis is for “better designed software”, but being able to fork a desktop OS from 20 years prior, make it into a mobile OS, then to a tablet OS, then to…

People round here hate this, but it's true.

I used to be "the Android guy" at a big games publisher. In my time the billing component had to be rewritten three times solely because of Google changes. The Apple one was written once and left alone.

We can't even discuss why those Google changes happened because doing so would get you shot, or worse.

The tech direction that was going on at Apple was enormously better than other companies. It does feel like they've gone off the rails a bit, but things like Swift are underappreciated entirely because they're so successful, just with the wrong sort of developer.

Re: Google must open Android for third-party stores, rules Epic judge

#530

Post by GeekyBear » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 5:37 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #513

GeekyBear wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the law. Having a closed platform isn't illegal. Just ask Nintendo. Anticompetitive behavior is illegal, even when you are anticompetitively competing in a market that you yourself chose to create by creating an open platform. Just ask Microsoft. If Google's leadership didn't understand that legal restrictions their choice placed upon them, that failure is on Google's leaderhip.

Like I said, I get the reasoning, I just think it's a terrible outcome. > "If the law supposes that," said Mr. Bumble, squeezing his hat emphatically in both hands, "the law is a ass—a idiot. If that's the eye of the law, the law is a bachelor; and the worst I wish the law is, that his eye may be opened by experience—by experience." (Charles Dickens, Oliver Twist )

Nothing forced Google to compete in an anticompetitive manner.

They (and Microsoft) could have created an open platform and then competed in the market they created withiut resorting to illegal behavior.