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Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

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Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#521

Post by onli »

nkmnz wrote: post #460

The problem with this kind of test is that the people still live in a society where cheap labor is available to the companies around them that provide them with all the goods and services that they like to purchase with those $1000 (or whatever free amount they've gotten). Germany shifted to a system that is as close to a basic income as you can currently imagine. There are some strings attached, but considerably les…

That's not exactly correct. The bürgergeld was planned to be a kind of basic income, but that part of it was axed. The conditions that apply move it to exactly the same social security money that existed before.

There is also statistically no existing move from work to existence supported by bürgergeld. It's just propaganda when that's claimed.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#522

Post by selfmodruntime »

constantcrying wrote: post #484
nkmnz wrote: post #460

The problem with this kind of test is that the people still live in a society where cheap labor is available to the companies around them that provide them with all the goods and services that they like to purchase with those $1000 (or whatever free amount they've gotten). Germany shifted to a system that is as close to a basic income as you can currently imagine. There are some strings attached, but considerably les…

>Germany shifted to a system that is as close to a basic income as you can currently imagine. It is free money for everyone. Everyone obviously excluding the people who work full-time and who are paying taxes so that "everyone" can live of Bürgergeld. >but especially for those relying on government money... Yes, those are the real victims here. Who else could be victimized by working full time, so that other people d…

> It is free money for everyone. Everyone obviously excluding the people who work full-time and who are paying taxes so that "everyone" can live of Bürgergeld.

Oh wow, the exact thing people have been saying would happen has happened. Turn's out Quasi-UBI is a drain on tax paying citizens after all. Amazing.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#523

Post by selfmodruntime »

wpguy wrote: post #489
constantcrying wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Germany shifted to a system that is as close to a basic income as you can currently imagine. It is free money for everyone. Everyone obviously excluding the people who work full-time and who are paying taxes so that "everyone" can live of Bürgergeld. >but especially for those relying on government money... Yes, those are the real victims here. Who else could be victimized by working full time, so that other people d…

That is the problem with these programs. You will never get full buy in from the population unless EVERYONE benefits from it. Just look at social security and Medicare if you go to cut that it is political suicide.

Forced large scale redistribution is just theft, honestly. The value proposition of heavy taxing is no longer met, people here (in Germany) no longer receive fair benefits for their taxes. Infrastructure is failing.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#524

Post by selfmodruntime »

abeppu wrote: post #508
layer8 wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why choose being a service worker in gastronomy The tipping money often exceeds the wage, from what I hear.

Is this true in Germany? As an American, I was always of the impression that in continental Europe, tips were as a rule a much smaller part of compensation.

Not as extreme as in the US, but it's still true. My brother nearly outearned me during our studies, I was a working part time student and he worked tables on the Weekend.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#525

Post by snarf21 »

lolinder wrote: post #470
ilaksh wrote: post #22

$1000 is not enough to quit their jobs or get a nice apartment. They could move slightly closer to work if they have to commute. It's not enough for a real tuition or to support them to study instead of work. I don't think we've ever had a universal basic income test. We have always missed the universal and basic part. It's below basic and not at all universal. I suspect that you need to get international cooperation…

> I don't think we've ever had a universal basic income test. We have always missed the universal and basic part. It's below basic and not at all universal. Every single time we see results from a study on something like UBI, someone comes out with this argument—you missed the universal and the basic! Yes. With that stipulated, how would you propose to test UBI before rolling it out on a country-wide scale? Every tes…

I think the issue is that we don't really want or need UBI. We need to take a step back and think of the goal. Is that to help people that need it most? We can start with something to try to achieve that. Then continue to roll that forward.

We could try an approach like: People who make less than the poverty line pay no state/federal taxes. Each month you get direct deposit (no bureaucracy) to bring you up to poverty line for last month. Each month you get direct deposit (no bureaucracy) of up to $1000 or whatever would bring you to double the poverty line.

These programs would be automatic based on payroll tax filings and help the people who need UBI most. Also, we'd slowly be able to evolve these further to handle all benefit assistance programs and save a ton of money.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#526

Post by Ray20 »

jerf wrote: post #491
giantg2 wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's something that most programs don't even try to explain, and something ive wondered about - how does the money affect competition, both for goods/services and labor? If you're affecting very small percentages of the population, the impacts seem minor. We've seen this with analysis on raising minimum wage to about $10/hr. Most people make over that amount (or work in excluded roles), so the impact is small. Rais…

UBI creates inflation. I think anyone trying to deny that amounts to denying it because they really want UBI, and so they need it to not have that bad effect, but it does. You can't pour money into an economy without a productivity offset without inflating it. The theory is that productivity increases will in fact offset it. One way to prevent an increase in money causing inflation is to correspondingly increase the…

>no one trying to figure out how to actually bind the productivity increases together with UBI

Because we not only figured that out, but already implemented this several times in practice. Productivity decreasing until there is nothing to eat, and then people dies from starvation (for some reasons they can't live without food)

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#527

Post by pcrh »

nkmnz wrote: post #460

The problem with this kind of test is that the people still live in a society where cheap labor is available to the companies around them that provide them with all the goods and services that they like to purchase with those $1000 (or whatever free amount they've gotten). Germany shifted to a system that is as close to a basic income as you can currently imagine. There are some strings attached, but considerably les…

Your argument ignores the fact that people do not "need" to demand a full market wage if they already get UBI. Indeed, it is often claimed that state subsidies to the poor are in effect subsidies to their employers.

The situation exists where any low income person gets subsidies from the state, e.g. through cheaper housing, free schools and healthcare, etc. People are still incentivized to work even when they get these subsidies. UBI merely extends such subsidies to include food and other daily expenses.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#528

Post by selfmodruntime »

littlestymaar wrote: post #497
nkmnz wrote: post #460

The problem with this kind of test is that the people still live in a society where cheap labor is available to the companies around them that provide them with all the goods and services that they like to purchase with those $1000 (or whatever free amount they've gotten). Germany shifted to a system that is as close to a basic income as you can currently imagine. There are some strings attached, but considerably les…

I know you really want to believe it, but this is bs: look at inflation statistics in Europe and you'll see that the effect you're imaging doesn't exist. There's no excess inflation in Germany compared to everywhere else in the EU. Also Bürgergeld is $500 a month for an adult, which is very far from "You can easily live from the Bürgergeld ". Survive maybe but definitely not "easily live". The labor market issues in…

> Also Bürgergeld is $500 a month for an adult, which is very far from "You can easily live from the Bürgergeld". Survive maybe but definitely not "easily live".

You're leaving out a ton of information there. The 500 Euros is after everything else has been paid for. There's also lots of benefits like Kindergeld, money for each child you have.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#529

Post by rbanffy »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #240
nehal3m wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The vast majority of excess value held by investors is not directed towards consumption. So why does it need to be created in the first place then? That takes work that apparently does not need to happen for any other reason than economic, not because it is valuable in and of itself.

>That takes work that apparently does not need to happen for any other reason than economic, not because it is valuable in and of itself. Value =/= Work. no extra work is happening at the burger shop. you still need X hours to make Y hamburgers. If anyone works less, fewer people eat. The extra value is extracted from the buyers (many of whom are workers elsewhere). >So why does it need to be created in the first pla…

> The extra value is extracted from the buyers (many of whom are workers elsewhere).

Who could, in turn, work less if burger prices didn't reflect the need to pay investors more than they invested.

> In theory, people have proposed doing away with the profit signal, but the only alternative is trial and error from a political process.

You can always measure by actual consumption.

> By way of analogy, Walmart has a 2% profit margin which is a cost consumers bear

Note Walmart is subsidised by government programs that pay their employees because the wages Walmart pays are considered too low for survival.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#530

Post by rbanffy »

brigadier132 wrote: post #130
nehal3m wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cards on the table: I think the vast majory of people would do less, and perhaps very little socially productive work without the current financial incentives. I don't disagree, but aren't you implicitly admitting here that the vast majority of people don't want to spend their lives doing work? We get a few laps around the sun, once, before we return to oblivion. It seems a tragedy to me to force almost everyone in…

People dont want to work but they want the benefits of other peoples labor. Simultaneously they try to fight the automation that would lead to a world were humans dont need to work for things to exist

> Simultaneously they try to fight the automation that would lead to a world were humans dont need to work for things to exist

Because they are sure (rightfully so) the owners of said automation will not pay them enough to offset their lost jobs.

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