Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're probably right, it was a made up number to make a point. The point being that if you are not growing your own food (or hunting it) you're probably engaged in "surrogate activity" for a living and not directly satisfying your physical needs. Would you say more than 1/100,000 people in today's world grow and or hunt for their food daily?
Now you're moving goalposts at breathtaking speeds. Previously, you defined surrogate activity as "artificial goal that people set up for themselves merely in order to have some goal", i.e. definitely not producing anything useful. Now suddenly it's supposed to be anything "not directly satisfying your physical needs".
Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software
521–530 of 545 posts
Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software
#522Most of the people I know who pursue creative/crafting hobbies alongside a software development job have chosen to work for well-known big companies, for prestige and safety, and ended up unfulfilled in their jobs. Most big companies are not good if you want to solve problems and build stuff. Especially "the enterprise", where software is seen as a cost center so the less of it the better. The effort of managing up e…
Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software
#523Earlier quoted context omitted.
Great criteria! I strongly recommend sailing also as a hobby meeting these criteria- although wind surfing is a type of sailing. Zero equipment or money is required because most people that race sailboats are always looking for crew, and are happy to take on a novice that is excited to learn. I think people often turn away from sailing because it's seen as an expensive elitist thing for wealthy people, but the truth…
> happy to take on a novice that is excited to learn. Agree. With zero background in wind-sports I joined a crew. The yacht owner mostly just wanted someone that would turn up reliably - we had one guy who was terrible on the boat but he was reliably there. Good mixture of backgrounds of the crew. I really enjoyed being part of a team sport. The main cost was committing to one day a week. I got cheap gear (jacket, gl…
The tricky part for team sports is coordination with other folks. I can bike out my backyard and hit a 90 min XC loop to clear my head without needing to agree with anyone else on time. I also only have to coordinate with one other person for climbing (or often 0, if there's already a critical mass of folks I know who are there as often as I am).
I do agree that the specific dynamics of team sports are desirable (e.g. figuring out how to socially get along in pursuit of a common goal vs. a bunch of individuals going about their own pursuit...together), and often the social force towards not letting one's team down by ghosting or not practicing can be a motivating factor for a lot of folks on this site who might need that to ensure they keep showing up each week.
Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software
#524Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yep. Imagine being a woodworker on a massive project like a large sailing vessel or Japanese castle. Suddenly coordination and collaboration requirements go right back up. Now you can't just wing your project. You've got to make sure the part your building matches the agreed upon spec and hope the teams you're "integrating" with have also followed the spec. When one of those teams gets "creative" suddenly things aren…
This happens literally every single day in residential construction. Aside from the building code, there isn't typically a "spec" for construction. The plan doesn't specify "this wall shall be plumb to within +/- 0.001 radians". Somehow, cabinets still get hung even though the framer framed a crooked wall on top of a crooked stem wall all because foundation guy was hungover that day.
Sure - perhaps not plumb to within +/- 0.001 radians, but there’s still an expectation that the wall needs to be vertical within some error tolerance band (even if not specified). Error correction happens real-time - the cabinet guy compensates for the wall error, and so on.
That’s also why I find residential construction so shoddy (the US at least) - electrical junction boxes are always a little off-angle, cover plates aren’t flush, etc.
Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software
#525Earlier quoted context omitted.
At a level or two down from the abstraction of company size, crafting hobbies are also a reprieve from the tyranny of linters. So many programmers today believe that code is always better when it all looks identical. Consistency is a good thing, but not when it's expected to be absolute. Programming should actually allow for creativity, and where you decide to add spaces and newlines can actually add subtle but impor…
I curse the inferior linter formatting and at the same time would not have it any other way because why? Some diva would come in and put up a MR reformatting half the code base to their preferred way, mixed in with the actual change they are making and I would have to hunt for the actual changes in the reformatting noise. And then we would spend half a day arguing about it like in the good old days. Fast forward six…
Nice. It adds a bit of spice to your git-bisect bug-hunting, to keep you on your toes.. Who doesn't like a good challenge?
Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software
#526I don't understand why more adults don't have awesome hobbies... most of my childhood friends don't seem to do anything fun now as adults. I really love physical things I can do with my body as a counterbalance to working on the computer- weight lifting, woodworking, and sailing add a lot of value to my life, and have gotten me outdoors and in shape. I'm currently building a wood sailboat in my garage together with m…
> don't understand why more adults don't have awesome hobbies...
Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software
#527Earlier quoted context omitted.
It really is a shame that he ended up getting violent, because "Industrial Society and Its Future" is one of the most interesting, insightful, and fascinating things I've read. I recommend it to everyone. IMHO it's a classic example where "the author is excellent at identifying problems, not good at identifying solutions." Unfortunately almost nobody reads the first (identification) part because the solution part is…
Did the Unabomer have any ideas you couldn't read elsewhere? I imagine there are tons of philosophers who have said similar things. Here's a comment recommending Jacque Ellul and Lewis Mumford - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4015488 Another one - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24658601 (I haven't read them) But we probably don't remember or cite them because their manifestos weren't published on the fron…
> Did the Unabomer have any ideas you couldn't read elsewhere?
> I imagine there are tons of philosophers who have said similar things.
I would imagine the Unabomber isn't the first or only, but it is the first place where I encountered many of the ideas/analysis. It absolutely felt like it went very much against the grain of acceptable writing of the day. It amounted to outright heresy in some cases, which I find fascinating and engaging. People who challenge the status quo are the ones who IMHO change the world the most. I'm by no means equating Kaczynski with many of the greats of the past, but they all had that same trait in common: challenging the assumptions and status quo of the day with at times heretical ideas.
In particular, his observation/separation of the three different power levels in which humans can operate deeply spoke to me and resonated with me. His identification of how operating in power levels 1 and 3 can be so profoundly different than how our brains evolved to be and therefore unfulfilling and unsatisfying struck me with the same sort of intellectual force that Immanuel Kant's Categorical Imperative did the first time I understood it. Then he builds logically on that to identify/describe how with technology we are essentially being pushed entirely out of power-level 2 and into levels 1 and 3, and it becomes very easy and simple to understand why he believes technology to be so disastrous for humanity.
> But we probably don't remember or cite them because their manifestos weren't published on the front page of newspapers.
> That was due to the serial violence of the author, and it was subsequently talked about for decades.
> That is, the notoriety of his crimes could be the reason that you read and recommend his work, rather than somebody else's work -- as opposed to it being a coincidence
Absolutely, I very much agree. Although if none of those other works ever made it to my attention, then they don't have the opportunity to influence me or give me the feeling of intellectual nourishment that I got from Kaczynski's manifesto.
This strikes me as a very similar problem to the medical knowledge gained by Nazi scientist from doing horrifying experiments on Jewish prisoners. Do we disregard the knowledge gained because it was gained in such a disagreeable and reprehensible way? Logically, disregarding it makes no sense, only providing emotional satisfaction. Using it can benefit our future, but not using it does nothing to change the past. We could say "incentives" but that has to be addressed through punishments/repercussions to the people who did the experiments.
But regardless, those other sources have reached me now, thank you! I'll be reading them :-)
Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software
#528Earlier quoted context omitted.
It really is a shame that he ended up getting violent, because "Industrial Society and Its Future" is one of the most interesting, insightful, and fascinating things I've read. I recommend it to everyone. IMHO it's a classic example where "the author is excellent at identifying problems, not good at identifying solutions." Unfortunately almost nobody reads the first (identification) part because the solution part is…
His manifesto is crying about SJWs 40 years before the concept existed. There's nothing insightful in there at all.
But you equating his manifesto to that makes me think you didn't read it, or at least didn't do so with an intent on understanding it. There are millions of shallow/lazy summaries online, so if you read a summary or blog post about it, you've done yourself and the text a disservice.
It's the very much not "crying about" what he calls "leftists" which I'm guessing you are translating into "SJWs," particularly in the current sense. He goes into significant analytical detail about why he thinks what he thinks. You also have to consider his background and experiences, from being severely isolated/deprived of human contact as a child due to the medical advice of the day, to his experience as a rare math prodigy and one of the youngest professors. From wikipedia[1]:
> In late 1967, the 25-year-old Kaczynski became an acting assistant professor at the University of California, Berkeley, where he taught mathematics. He assumed the position as the youngest assistant professor in the history of the university.
Think about the different environment that was than today! This was the late 60's. Leftists then were very different than they are now, and he was at Berkeley. If you're unaware, there was a significant cultural development going on at Berkeley in the late 60s. Further[1]:
> Without any explanation, Kaczynski resigned on June 30, 1969.[35] In a 1970 letter written by John W. Addison Jr., the chairman of the mathematics department, to Kaczynski's doctoral advisor Shields, Addison referred to the resignation as "quite out of the blue".[37][38] He added that "Kaczynski seemed almost pathologically shy", and that, as far as he knew, Kaczynski made no close friends in the department, noting that efforts to bring him more into the "swing of things" had failed.
This period undoubtedly had a huge impact on his life, and not considering this when evaluating his text is a mistake IMHO. Also there is so much more depth to this than what I've said here, but I'm unfortunately out of time for the moment.
Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software
#529Most of the people I know who pursue creative/crafting hobbies alongside a software development job have chosen to work for well-known big companies, for prestige and safety, and ended up unfulfilled in their jobs. Most big companies are not good if you want to solve problems and build stuff. Especially "the enterprise", where software is seen as a cost center so the less of it the better. The effort of managing up e…
At small companies, across a long career, I’ve solved the same problems many times. But that’s not the part that stings the most. What grinds my gears is failing to solve problems I’ve already solved . At some point you have to convince others that a plan is good. Your arguments might not work on a new team. You might not know what the secret sauce was that got you consensus last time. Or after years of getting your…
Simply adoption something that worked in a previous place isn’t a way of usually making decisions, imagine a company with 100 engineers where they all came from different companies and have different ways they solved the cicd problem - how do you move forward from that ?
Decision making can be complex - can also be very simple, depending on the company ..
Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software
#530Earlier quoted context omitted.
His manifesto is crying about SJWs 40 years before the concept existed. There's nothing insightful in there at all.
I think we both agree that the people now who cry about SJWs are not particulary insightful or interesting. But you equating his manifesto to that makes me think you didn't read it, or at least didn't do so with an intent on understanding it. There are millions of shallow/lazy summaries online, so if you read a summary or blog post about it, you've done yourself and the text a disservice. It's the very much not "cryi…