Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#521

Post by dylan604 » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 4:53 AM UTC

smoldesu wrote: post #485

dylan604 wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an unwinnable fight when you're selling to datacenter customers. didn't Apple pretty much throw in the towel in this market simply by choice of form factor for their computers? The sheer desperation of their users wanting a device in this space is shown in the "creative" ways to mount their offerings in a rack. all of the user friendly things they've done by shrinking the footprint, making them silent, etc are all…

I mostly agree, which is why I question their strategy of even "competing" at all. The existence of CoreML feels strictly obligatory, as if the existence of Pytorch and Tensorflow spurned FOMO from the C-suites. It's not terrible , but it's also pretty pointless when the competing libraries do more things, faster. Users, developers, and probably Apple too would benefit from just using the prior art. I'd go as far as…

>I mostly agree, which is why I question their strategy of even "competing" at all.

If it makes their camera "smarter", it's a win. If they can make Siri do something more than "start a timer", then it's a win. If they can have images translate text more accurately, it's a win. There's a lot of things that an on device AI could help users without having to do all of the power hungry creation of a model or the fine tuning. They can do that in the mothership, and just push models on their device.

Not everyone needs to do AI the way you are trying to do it

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#522

Post by smoldesu » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 5:01 AM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #521

smoldesu wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly agree, which is why I question their strategy of even "competing" at all. The existence of CoreML feels strictly obligatory, as if the existence of Pytorch and Tensorflow spurned FOMO from the C-suites. It's not terrible , but it's also pretty pointless when the competing libraries do more things, faster. Users, developers, and probably Apple too would benefit from just using the prior art. I'd go as far as…

>I mostly agree, which is why I question their strategy of even "competing" at all. If it makes their camera "smarter", it's a win. If they can make Siri do something more than "start a timer", then it's a win. If they can have images translate text more accurately, it's a win. There's a lot of things that an on device AI could help users without having to do all of the power hungry creation of a model or the fine tu…

I think that's a mistaken way of viewing it. Apple's failure in the gaming space is entirely a matter of policy; you look over at the Steam Deck and Valve is running Microsoft IP without paying for their runtime. Some people really do get their cake and eat it too.

Any of the aforementioned libraries could make their camera smarter or improve Siri/OCR marginally. The fact that Apple wasted their time reinventing the wheel is what bothers me, they're making a mistake by assuming that their internal library will inherently appeal to developers and compete with the SOTA.

The reason why I criticize them is because I legitimately believe Apple is one of the few companies capable of shipping hardware that competes with Nvidia. Apple is their only competitor at TSMC, it's entirely a battle of engineering wits between the two of them right now. Apple is going nowhere fast with CoreML and Accelerate framework, but they could absolutely cut Nvidia off at the pass by investing in the unified infrastructure that Intel and AMD refuse to. It also wouldn't harm the customer experience, leverages third-party contributions to advance their progress, and frees up resources to work on more important things. Just sayin'.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#523

Post by tymscar » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 5:02 AM UTC

8note wrote: post #294

montagg wrote: post #286

One of the worst gaming user experiences on Windows is how every publisher wants their own store. And depending on where you get a game, it may or may not have certain features. And if you get into modding, sometimes one version of the game just won't work with some mods. I understand everyone feels good about increased competition with Apple—and hopefully it turns out well for users—but iOS is hurtling toward the sa…

It's a much better experience on windows to not be stuck with a windows store. Third party stores like steam are way better

Sadly this comparison is very misleading. Steam was a thing for a decade before the windows store and it has been basically the default. The more game stores that appeared over time the worse it has been for the gamers.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#524

Post by stale2002 » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 5:03 AM UTC

burnerthrow008 wrote: post #390

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those things where there is only upside for everyone involved. Apple (and Google) need to be saved from themselves sometimes. Meanwhile the repeated reversals are making Apple look guilty and nefarious.

> This is one of those things where there is only upside for everyone involved. Except all of us who value privacy and security. Face it: the major competition between app stores is not going to be on price, but a race to the bottom on who can allow apps to fuck over users the hardest.

Hey, maybe Apple should have thought of that and reduced their app store fee to 5% years ago then.

Nobody would be going after Apple if they had simply stopped their monopoly pricing scheme.

Its too late for that now. Now Apple is going to be forced, under threat of government action, to stop its anti-competitive actions.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#525

Post by stale2002 » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 5:06 AM UTC

kj100 wrote: post #387

agust wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, Apple takes a strong decision which breaks a just-enforced law, and two days later they back down because they had a nice talk with Epic. /s The EU told Apple that breaking the law would have dire consequences. That's the only reason Apple backed down. Stop spreading Apple propaganda.

> The EU told Apple that breaking the law would have dire consequences. That's the only reason Apple backed down. You have no idea that this is what happened. You're the one spreading propaganda. Why propagandize it at all? EPIC hates Apple and wants to see the App store dead. Apple reasonably didn't trust EPIC not to play games with the DMA. The EU asked EPIC to give an assurance that they would play by the rules an…

> EPIC is forced to accept that Apple is complying with the DMA.

No they don't. They are absolutely still able to start a lawsuit, as is the EU.

We likely won't have to wait more than a couple weeks to see the lawsuits filed.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#526

Post by stale2002 » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 5:09 AM UTC

Dalewyn wrote: post #447

overgard wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Business is an at-will arrangement, at least in the free parts of the world Funny, because part of what makes the free parts of the world "free" is competition, which is exactly what Apple is trying to stifle. Also it's funny you cite that disclaimer about right of refusal, because in fact, there are plenty of discrimination laws that address just that and in general there are reasons you can and can't refuse servi…

[flagged]

> If you want to do business with someone, you and them both agree to and abide by terms set forth. If you don't like the terms, you renegotiate and if that doesn't pan out you terminate the agreement according to terms therein or otherwise as amicably as possible and go on your way.

Well no. Instead of that, if the other party is required by law to do business with you, then you can use government force to make them do so.

And if Apple disagrees, then they are perfectly within their right to shutdown their EU operations and lose tens of billions of dollars I guess.

But the rest of us are perfectly willing to use democratically enacted laws, as they are intended.

> but Apple doesn't need Epic

They need the EU though. And if they don't comply with the law then they will be fined many billions of dollars, or be shut down entirely in the EU.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#527

Post by inspector-g » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 5:15 AM UTC

EMIRELADERO wrote: post #509

turquoisevar wrote: post #492

All parties involved want to flex their muscles and most here argue based on how impressed they are by the flexes displayed. Apple wants to show that they can’t be brought to their knees. Epic wants to show that they can get away with shit. The EU wants to show that they have teeth and are to be feared. In the meantime, the only organization with the actual final say, the CJEU, is off forgotten in these debates and i…

The DMA imposes FRAND obligations on gatekeepers and free interoperability requirements ("interoperability" here meaning literally everything from using the installation APIs to install apps from the web to being able to call all OS APIs for free on your app. That's why Apple's "Core Technology Fee" is screwed)

Do you know which sections of the DMA address this? Genuinely asking because I’d like to read from the source here.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#528

Post by mullingitover » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 5:15 AM UTC

Aldo_MX wrote: post #200

mullingitover wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't have successful tech giants, you can have principles. If Apple/Meta/Alphabet were European companies the EU regulators would have absolutely no scruples about these things. Every country talks 'free trade!' out of one side of their mouth, and implements protectionism via various concerns about health/safety/fairness out of the other when it's expedient. The US isn't any different, it's just not tech comp…

The US used to have huge oil or railroad companies, but also scruples to regulate them when they grew too big.

I really don't think the oil and railroad monopolies were broken up for the benefit of consumers, or due to some high-minded principles. They were broken up at the behest of other domestic industries which they were strangling, and those industries had the political clout to take on the monopolies. Arguably the same thing happened with the AT&T monopoly.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#529

Post by Moldoteck » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 5:18 AM UTC

roamerz wrote: post #496

astlouis44 wrote: post #41

Amazing how fast this decision was reversed. It's truly awesome to see regulators standing up to walled gardens. This will greatly benefit both developers and consumers.

Apple should offer 2 versions of the phone. One version for the consumers who appreciate the extra level of security and another for the rest.

Apple should follow eu laws if it wants to do business withe eu. I know, sounds crazy right?

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#530

Post by KingOfCoders » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 5:27 AM UTC

jfoster wrote: post #429

overgard wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely just Apple trying to save face. Without the threat of fines and lengthy legal proceedings Apple would not have cared about "epic's commitment to follow the rules"

Difficult to imagine what Apple were thinking in the first place. Did they actually think there was a chance the EU would let this slide? Best I can tell, all they've achieved is bringing even greater scrutiny on themselves.

Difficult to imagine what "companies" are thinking. I was working as an executive for subsidiary of eBay Inc. but would never imagine something like this happenening:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay_stalking_scandal