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I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

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Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you understand that the side of this argument you're representing is making excuses for internationally illegal theft as, "well they sure had it coming?"

The side you are representing was trusted with safekeeping this information. They purposefully placed it into the jurisdiction where it is frequently, systematically stolen. They clearly did this to save a few bucks. Quite reasonably, some people are asking, why do they face no accountability for this decision. You are coming up with excuses like "well they couldn't possibly be aware of information that was widely av…

I can no longer follow your argument, sorry. This is blatantly moving goalposts to excuse theft and defend what exactly? Are you suggesting industrial theft at a mass scale is excusable because they knew the risks? That is the definition of victim-blaming.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#523
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how we weigh up the morals here. If you've done something using a companies resources (laptop, desk, chair etc.) and they're paying you and the contract says they own it I don't see how you can have a moral high ground. Maybe there should be some way to allow these ownership concepts to expire so that society benefits overall but right now we don't have that.

> If you've done something using a companies resources (laptop, desk, chair etc.) You're making a huge assumption that this is what happened.

At one point in the article there is a photograph of a chair in the uber hallway and a caption indicating that the couch in the picture (or one similar to it) was where most of the work was done for this project.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“When governments permit counterfeiting or copying of American products, it is stealing our future, and it is no longer free trade.” - US President Donald Trump, commenting on China. Actually, the above quote is not Trump and not on China. It's Ronald Raegan on Japan in 1985. When a new economic threat rises, the US will use the same playbook- demonizing in media, accusations, turn the public against said country, ba…

Except China has required technology transfer and has been actively committing state sponsored industrial espionage for decades. Surely this isn’t news? I’m down with China as a competitor, but we have a strong division between state and industry and China does not. I don’t think a unipolar world is a good idea, and I’m glad for a resurgent China. But it’s absurd to put on blinders and believe forced technology trans…

> we have a strong division between state and industry

Lmao

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you’re doing is completely denouncing BYD’s accomplishments by saying they must have stolen the technology to get to where they are today. That’s the exact argument you will use to convince yourself of any of China’s successes stories. They can’t possibly innovate because they’re Chinese and not western. Therefore, they must have stolen the tech. This is how Raegan convinced the public in 1980s.

I don’t think you read anything I wrote. China has enormous success stories that don’t depend on pilfering or extorting, and a rich history for thousands of years. In fact I think the Chinese governments behavior in this respect is below the divinity of Chinese people and Chinese culture. This plays out in the recent domestic behavior of the Chinese government towards its own people. I even said I welcome a multipola…

The way I see it, this problem will solve itself. People do not enjoy having to copy others. Historically, countries have done it to get to a comfortable state, then it stops once they're comfortable. The biggest example being Japan.

You cannot watch older Japanese animations and not see the heavy inspiration from Disney, but the style used in their shows today is far evolved. You equally cannot sit in a Toyota and not see the western influence. Travelling to America was literally part of their game plan to improve their own technology though at first it was for investigating automatic looms [1]. I would be surprised if Toyota did not reverse engineer a western vehicle. Today however, I imagine you need no convincing that Toyota is simply the superior product compared to its western counterparts and can stand on its own two feet.

Your counter argument might be that it's different with China because the government is assisting in this. To that, I would point out the Meiji Restoration in Japan. Similarly, their government encouraged young scholars to learn abroad in order to pull Japan forwards technologically. Not only that, the government hired foreigners known as "O-yatoi Gaikokujin" and " the main goal in hiring the O-yatois was to obtain transfers of technology and advice on systems and cultural ways." [2].

That last one sounds a lot like a government-funded technology transfer to me. It's definitely not happening today in Japan, but at one point the government deemed it necessary.

I agree on the point about BYD. We would definitely see the result of a technology transfer in a BYD car. But how much of that can just be attributed to hiring talent from foreign companies? There are articles about Japanese engineers being headhunted by Chinese automakers [3]. This is common in developing countries. A lot of top positions/ executives are senior engineers coming in from abroad getting a significant title bump and pay increase (the pay increase is even greater if you consider the cost of living in the host country).

If you consider headhunting talent to not be competing on equal footing with the world, then that's a completely separate discussion. But I wish to provide more peace of mind for you that this problem is indeed transitory. To do that, I will direct your attention towards the rhetoric used against minorities.

People say that minorities are criminals, but we know that's not true. It's poor people who are desperate enough to perform those acts who will turn to crime. Minorities get over-represented due to society being biased against them causing them to be in more dire financial situations. Nobody takes pride in being a criminal. The moment they are financially stable, they stop - 2nd generation immigrants have extremely low rates of criminal activity.

Similarly, China is still a poor country. We might not think of it because we think of Shanghai and Shenzhen, but their GPD per capita is lower than Russia's, and their HDI is lower than Ukraine's. As China develops, they will find more effective ways to compete that don't tarnish their image, just like other countries have done on their path of development.

My goal is not to debunk you. There are definitely some instances of shady IP dealings in China, but there are some instances that are clean as you have also pointed out. What I do want to get across though is that these are the growing pains of a developing country that successful countries also went through in the past.

People probably had this conversation about Japan when Japan was developing. They do not have them today. So too will we no longer have these conversations about China in the future.

[1] https://www.toyota-global.com/company/history_of_toyota/75ye... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_government_advisors_in... [3] https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Japanese-engine...

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#527

Best quote: "People working for Didi apply for intern jobs at Uber China and then exfiltrate our data. We can’t let them see the formulas or they’ll just copy what we do!” This is so true. People in the US just don't understand the level of economic and industrial espionage that happens in China on a daily basis. I was responding to an unrelated breach at an unnamed tech company back in mid-2000s time frame and had a…

Similar reports were widespread 20+ years ago, when I worked in aerospace. Bad faith partnerships, industrial espionage, and companies barred from competing after all useful information was extracted. It has gone on for decades and nobody will do anything about it. Executives and shareholders get dollar signs in their eyes over the thought of tapping into the Chinese market, and let themselves get burned over and over again.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now I understand what you are saying, and no. For a salaried employee it pretty much covers everything you do that is related to your job, with that “related to your job” being interpreted very loosely, or done with company equipment or on company time.

Okay, well that's a bad way to define those words if very vague relatedness is enough, with no other factors. Work for hire should always be very clear.

Well that’s what the case law is.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The side you are representing was trusted with safekeeping this information. They purposefully placed it into the jurisdiction where it is frequently, systematically stolen. They clearly did this to save a few bucks. Quite reasonably, some people are asking, why do they face no accountability for this decision. You are coming up with excuses like "well they couldn't possibly be aware of information that was widely av…

I can no longer follow your argument, sorry. This is blatantly moving goalposts to excuse theft and defend what exactly? Are you suggesting industrial theft at a mass scale is excusable because they knew the risks? That is the definition of victim-blaming.

Shareholders are victims, executives are their agents that acted against shareholder’s long term interests.

Here is a better example; you trust the bank with your money, bank gets robbed. The criminals are gonna be criminals. But why is the bank vault made of cardboard, and why is the password ‘1234’? Imagine the same bank keeps getting robbed for 10 years, and they make no attempt to fix things.

Should the management still get their bonus? Should they be help to account? At some point you have to start asking if the bank management is in on the crime.

Re: I built Excel for Uber and they ditched it

#530
I just finished doing this. I built an Excel formula parser and interpreter, and then a transpiler into Python. I even had the experience of having the values off by "just a little" and there's so many things that can cause it, it's just whack-a-mole honestly.

Makes me wonder how many times this has been done haha.

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