Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features • Hacker News Board

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#521

Post by hot_gril » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:56 PM UTC

abandonliberty wrote: post #501

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #401

This should be "hacked" by the regulator and not by the hackers. If they sold you a car with heated seats (so if the hardware is there), the heated seats should be available for the consumer to use.

So people should not have the option of paying less of paying less for less features? Everyone must pay for features that only a subset of customers use? You make a common argument that's deceptively anti-consumer. Yes, this can be abused - but that's a different argument.

I'd be happy paying less for less features. Or paying less and then hacking the features in. It's kinda like ad-supported YouTube, pretty nice for me cause I just ad-block.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#522

Post by sdfignaionio » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:56 PM UTC

sirsinsalot wrote: post #464

There's a lot of missing the point in these threads about software locks. Building a car in a uniform way for economy of scale savings, fine. Having a software unlock for hardware you already have (but didn't pay for in the price). Fine. Using software to rent-seek on one time costs like heated seats. Not fine. Less fine too if the seat subscription can't carry to secondary market. This can he used to cripple seconda…

>Having a software unlock for hardware you already have (but didn't pay for in the price). Fine.

Tolerable, perhaps, but pretty far from fine. It's pretty shocking to me that people in our society build things and then deliberately break them so they can make more money. Is this really the best system we can come up with?

We have built a society where what is plainly crazy is rational.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#523

Post by jdjdjdhhd » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:56 PM UTC

bigmofo wrote: post #513

I would have thought that EFF and FSF would be more active in trying to promote open source in automobiles for privacy, security and being able to repair and modify the vehicle. I would think that it would be rather mind blowing how much information is gathered by the new vehicles about oneself. I have enough money to buy any model of Tesla, but will not due to privacy, security and safety reasons. (I consider drive…

> I have enough money to buy any model of Tesla, but will not due to privacy,

Which modern car do you think is not violating your privacy?

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#524

Post by djgigabits » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:57 PM UTC

Eisenstein wrote: post #413

m463 wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hacking otherwise reasonable software-locked features feels like theft to me. I disagree, pretty strongly. There is a line. They sold you something in its entirety, including the seats with wires. I would agree with you if you had to download the control software from their servers. I would agree with you if you if the upgrade provided you physical wires to install, even if you had to install them. Related I think…

How do you feel about software that has various 'pro' features that cost more but are unlocked with a key and don't require a separate download?

If you're purchasing the "not pro" version for a much cheaper cost, and it is a functional program (basic things like Save not locked behind the paywall), having different tiers of paid features is fine. You were able to pick to have the lower tier features, even if you end up downloading the same exact files.

When it comes to hardware, if they've already installed the feature, they've already factored the cost of it into the purchase price. Your out the door cost includes that heated seat hardware, even if it's not a line item. And you don't have the option to have it removed for a discount (or get a lower car package). You only have the option to pay to use the thing that's already in your car or not to pay to use it.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#525

Post by Zetice » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:57 PM UTC

TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #480

Zetice wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The price of the product being higher isn't a problem for the user?

Correct. That's a problem of a manufacturer for not having a competing product.

Would be a nice story if it weren’t for the inconvenient fact that Teslas are selling like crazy as they are.

Sounds like it would be problem for the consumer, though clearly a solved one.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#526

Post by balls187 » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:57 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #518

bigmofo wrote: post #513

I would have thought that EFF and FSF would be more active in trying to promote open source in automobiles for privacy, security and being able to repair and modify the vehicle. I would think that it would be rather mind blowing how much information is gathered by the new vehicles about oneself. I have enough money to buy any model of Tesla, but will not due to privacy, security and safety reasons. (I consider drive…

Sooner or later, some city is going to be held for ransom by a group that has disabled (or hijacked) all of the Teslas in it. "Give us a king's ransom or your roads will be clogged with immovable cars, and thus unusable, for weeks". Right now, there are not enough software-hijackable cars on the road for this to work, but that is changing. Once you have a critical mass of perhaps even just 5% of the cars, you can bri…

Curious, why do that, and not say attack the power grid?

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#527

Post by lambersley » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:58 PM UTC

liendolucas wrote: post #348

> Software-locked features that need to be activated by the owner paying or subscribing to a service are becoming increasingly popular in the auto industry. Sorry, WHAT? People should absolutely boycott companies that try to squeeze bucks in this miserable way.

This isn't new. Automakers following software companies' subscription model

https://www.foxnews.com/tech/automakers-bmw-gm-mercedes-char...

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#528

Post by ajsnigrutin » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:58 PM UTC

abandonliberty wrote: post #501

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #401

This should be "hacked" by the regulator and not by the hackers. If they sold you a car with heated seats (so if the hardware is there), the heated seats should be available for the consumer to use.

So people should not have the option of paying less of paying less for less features? Everyone must pay for features that only a subset of customers use? You make a common argument that's deceptively anti-consumer. Yes, this can be abused - but that's a different argument.

If they sell you a car with heated seats, you should have heated seats. They already sold you the heated seats, you already have the heated seats, and they just want more money for something they already got money for, and you already have.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#529

Post by oatmeal1 » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:58 PM UTC

liendolucas wrote: post #348

> Software-locked features that need to be activated by the owner paying or subscribing to a service are becoming increasingly popular in the auto industry. Sorry, WHAT? People should absolutely boycott companies that try to squeeze bucks in this miserable way.

People overreact to this. If this didn't exist, they would just manufacture cars the old way where multiple version of the same car are produced at high and low prices. I have seen no evidence provided this actually increases the total price of a high feature car. This might actually lower the average price paid because of the economies of scale achieved by making fewer different versions of the same car. Resale value can increase as well, since the person buying your car can get the features they want, even if you didn't originally purchase those features.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#530

Post by hot_gril » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:58 PM UTC

sdfignaionio wrote: post #522

sirsinsalot wrote: post #464

There's a lot of missing the point in these threads about software locks. Building a car in a uniform way for economy of scale savings, fine. Having a software unlock for hardware you already have (but didn't pay for in the price). Fine. Using software to rent-seek on one time costs like heated seats. Not fine. Less fine too if the seat subscription can't carry to secondary market. This can he used to cripple seconda…

>Having a software unlock for hardware you already have (but didn't pay for in the price). Fine. Tolerable, perhaps, but pretty far from fine. It's pretty shocking to me that people in our society build things and then deliberately break them so they can make more money. Is this really the best system we can come up with? We have built a society where what is plainly crazy is rational.

> It's pretty shocking to me that people in our society build things and then deliberately break them so they can make more money. Is this really the best system we can come up with?

All part of cost tradeoffs. Previously, they'd build the car with the ability to support all those add-ons even if the customer isn't getting them. Turns out it's cheaper not to do that.