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Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

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Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#521
post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

One important observation is that drug use is largely downstream of homelessness. Being homeless is awful, and drives people to self-medication/-numbing. (Of course some homelessness is caused by prior drug addiction but I’ve seen compelling analysis suggesting it’s mostly the other way around.) SF primarily has a cost-of-living problem, which produces a homelessness problem, which produces a drug problem. Programs t…

> you will have a huge budget to direct to social programs that can reduce the upstream causes of drug abuse, not just providing treatment after the fact. It sounds like Oregon didn’t get those programs in place yet.

If anything, Portland's actively pushed back against the county's efforts to put programs in place because the mayor wants the money to instead sweep ad-hoc encampments into city-run encampments:

https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2022/12/portland-mayor-t...

https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2023/05/mayor-ted-wheele...

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#522
I don't know what exactly Oregon did, so following isn't about Oregon but more in general:

I often hear the "decriminalize drugs it worked in Portugal" phrase. But while it's not wrong it also misses a lot of points.

Portugal did much more then just decriminalizing drugs, they also e.g. giving people free therapy or consulting to get them away from drugs, places where addicts can safely take drugs and also people can reach out to them to help them reduce drug consumption and much more. Also they did various steps to reduce the povertyorganized crimeselling drugstaking drugs relationship through I don't remember enough details.

I'm not even sure the last step is possible in the US due to the US being in a very different situations, e.g. wrt. police violence, gang violence, but also stuff like how society tends to punish people which had been in prison even through the prison punishment already is supposed to be their full penalty and enacting such discrimination is quite problematic (as it makes it much harder for someone to change their live to the better).

Anyway only decriminalizing without any other steps is likely most times a bad idea.

E.g. in Portugal after cutting resources for that program the results also started to become worse AFIK.

What is most important in my opinions is to make it easier for people to get away from drugs and turn their live around. _And this fundamentally also means not treating drug addicts for criminals because they are drug addicts_. But that isn't exact the same as a general decriminalization. For example you could have rules like not punishing people which committed a (non serve, e.g. drug possession up to some amount) crime due to being addicted iff and only iff they take a withdrawal therapy, and only once or so. Also such a therapy is provided for free by the state for any addicted citizen, at least once or twice in their live. Similar you do not get discriminated when for having been addicted in the past if you went to a withdrawal therapy. Especially the later point is really important.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#523
post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

[deleted]

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#524

Rubbish. Folks made the exact same arguments about alcohol and marijuana. Specifically with alcohol, anyone can walk into a treatment center without fear that they'll be arrested for the mere _use_ of a substance. (Marijuana has very low risk and rates of addiction, physical or psychological.) If "hard" drugs are legalized, then they will likely be treated the same as alcohol and pot and tobacco: highly regulated, so…

> If "hard" drugs are legalized, then they will likely be treated the same as alcohol and pot and tobacco: highly regulated, sold only to adults in very limited stores, and folks can enter treatment without fear of arrest.

I can tell you firsthand that minors have no problem acquiring alcohol and tobacco.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#526
post #446

What was done in Oregon, based on the successful policy in Portugal, was decriminalising use and possession of very small quantities. Distribution and sale are still just as illegal as before. Basically I think this is the right approach. Drug use at low levels in endemic. I don't think it makes sense for huge swathes of otherwise law abiding citizens to be technically criminals. It ends up with grossly distorted dem…

Portugal's program is very different than Oregon's. It's "decriminalized," sure... But with nonetheless strong state-enforced repercussions for doing hard drugs. From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal):

The [Portugese drug offense] committees have a broad range of sanctions available to them when ruling on the drug use offence. These include:

Fines, ranging from €25 to €150. These figures are based on the Portuguese minimum wage of about €485 (Banco de Portugal, 2001) and translate into hours of work lost.

Suspension of the right to practice if the user has a licensed profession (e.g. medical doctor, taxi driver) and may endanger another person or someone's possessions.

Ban on visiting certain places (e.g. specific clubbing venues).

Ban on associating with specific other persons.

Foreign travel ban.

Requirement to report periodically to the committee.

Withdrawal of the right to carry a gun.

Confiscation of personal possessions.

Cessation of subsidies or allowances that a person receives from a public agency.

Meanwhile Oregon's (and much of the West Coast's) idea of "decriminalization" is just... No consequences for doing hard drugs! Here's Oregon's law, from the article:

To achieve this goal, Measure 110 enacted two major changes to Oregon’s drug laws. First, minor drug possession was downgraded from a misdemeanor to a violation, similar to a traffic ticket. Under the new law, users caught with up to 1 gram of heroin or methamphetamine, or up to 40 oxycodone pills, are charged a $100 fine, which can be waived if they call a treatment-referral hotline. Second, the law set aside a portion of state cannabis tax revenue every two years to fund a statewide network of harm-reduction and other services.

You don't even have to pay the fine! You can just call a hotline. No follow up, no ensuring that you go to treatment... Just a phone call.

The idea that you can have no consequences for hard drug use, and that people will just voluntarily check themselves into "services" (or that "harm reduction" services will dissuade people from using hard drugs) is I think at this point dead in the water.

I used to be in favor of broad drug decriminalization. But the opioid epidemic changed my mind: some drugs are so bad that even when administered by a regulated medical system, large numbers of people's lives can be ruined simply by giving them access to the drug. Allowing street usage of similar drugs like heroin, fentanyl, etc can't be safer than that. I don't necessarily think jail is the best option, but zero-consequence + entirely-optional treatment for opiate abuse is not a working policy, and IMO jail is actually a better policy than that: at least in jail you have a chance at forcing them off the drug. My preferred policy at this point would probably look more like mandatory state-enforced rehab in a confined setting without long-term legal implications like a criminal record, though.

Less-addictive drugs like marijuana, ketamine, MDMA, etc I think probably should be legal for adults, with some guardrails around access similar to e.g. Sudafed. But effectively having an open season for using opiates is asking for trouble.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#527
The so-called "War on Drugs" was an objective and abject failure. It merely created the carceral state leading to the US having the highest per-capita incarceration rate of any country in the world. With 4% of the world's population, the US has 25% of the world's prisoners.

It's not that decriminalizing drugs hasn't worked. It's just now you see it. Previously it was hidden in remote prisons where the drugs were often brought in by the staff.

The point here is you need to fix the underlying reasons why people use drugs. Those reasons vary. Many heroin users start off with a valid prescription for opiate painkillers. The US prescribes opiates at a prodigious rate. Doctors are given golf trips to prescribe Oxycontin to enrich the Sacklers, creating the next generation of heroin junkie.

A lot of it is escapism and self-medication too. Untreated mental health issues, homelessness, hopeless conditions, etc.

In short, the drug isssue cannot be separated from material conditions, from having basic needs met. So when people cannot afford food or shelter, we as a society are making a choice to prioritize profits for a very few at the expensive of spreading misery and death to many people. Putting them in prison merely hides those problems from view.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#528
post #446

What was done in Oregon, based on the successful policy in Portugal, was decriminalising use and possession of very small quantities. Distribution and sale are still just as illegal as before. Basically I think this is the right approach. Drug use at low levels in endemic. I don't think it makes sense for huge swathes of otherwise law abiding citizens to be technically criminals. It ends up with grossly distorted dem…

> based on the successful policy in Portugal There are doubts about success of that policy now. Article from a few weeks ago: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/07/07/portugal-dru...

Portugal had more than 1% of its population addicted to drugs in the 80's. Check today's stats and compare it to other countries.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#529
post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

> Should we make drugs illegal again and force people into rehab?

You should make the negative behaviors associated with drug abuse illegal and force those people into rehab.

Use all the drugs you want until you go to break some other law, then you get arrested and don't get to go home until you're clean.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#530

And Oregon’s drug problems have not improved. Last year, the state experienced one of the sharpest rises in overdose deaths in the nation and had one of the highest percentages of adults with a substance-use disorder. Hardly shocking. I would be interested in seeing data -- if it's available -- on how much that uptick is due to people with addictions moving to the state in hopes of reducing the odds of ending up in j…

>"Three years is not a lot of time to give this a chance to work, especially with delays in funding. If you aren't even really providing the programs you said you would, then declaring it a failure is a joke. You never gave it a real chance."

This isn't an academic study; if people are dying and the treatment funding is not being increased immediately, keeping this 'experiment' going seems very unethical.

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