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Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

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Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#521
post #186

It's small, but here's a real actionable item that you can do to help: Put a gentle "Use Firefox" (or any other non-Chromium-based browser) message on your website. It doesn't have to be in-your-face, just something small. I've taken my own advice and added it to my own website: https://geeklaunch.io/ (It only appears on Chromium-based browsers.) We can slowly turn the tide, little by little.

> It only appears on Chromium-based browsers.

Small anecdote: I am not sure how you're detecting the browser, but this note still appears in Orion (webkit-based browser) while it does not in Safari. Persists even when I change user agent explicitly to Firefox or Safari.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, financial and social pressure is basically the only weapons we have against corporations when regulations don't exist. And honestly, financial pressure doesn't work at this scale or in this case.

If you live in a representative democracy, and Google has a presence there, contact the offices of those representatives. These things don't always seem like they matter, but sometimes they do. Big tech generally (and Google specifically) is a pretty popular target right now -- seemingly worldwide and across most ideological divisions.

This is true, but I think the main issue is whether people are quick enough to call for congressional hearings and decisive actions / lawmaking that would have any impact before it's too late. It's a race to the finish, and big tech companies always have the advantage. Of course, that doesn't mean regulation couldn't call for a reversal on what's been implemented.

The other side to this issue is despite the scrutiny towards big tech, they can still lobby and make any regulatory actions seem effective, when in practice, they've already gotten their fingers into influencing policy in such a way that doesn't ultimately address the consumers' concerns.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#523

The web stopped being open when W3C accepted EME. Now that effectively Google IS the web, they don't even have fake attempting to convince anybody and will just turn the web into another proprietary technology.

> The web stopped being open when W3C accepted EME

The web was more open when to play those videos you had to use a proprietary Flash or Silverlight plugin?

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#524
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is https://github.com/RupertBenWiser/Web-Environment-Integrity/... the best place to shame?

https://support.github.com/contact/report-abuse?category=rep...

I think the right avenue is to complain to W3C instead. Especially in the light of https://www.w3.org/TR/2023/DNOTE-w3c-vision-20230725/#princi... and violation of CoC https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc/#unacceptablebehavior ("Sustained disruption of discussion.")

The problem is that the proposal has not yet been brought to W3C.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been litigated to hell on HN, but no, there is no implicit contract when loading a webpage that your user agent will display ads or any other content as envisioned by the publisher. A user agent has always been intended to be something that displays content according to the wishes of the user. Even this "modest proposal" phrases itself in terms of user desires (albeit completely disingenuously). Ads have bec…

Your first paragraph, about ad blockers, is very strong, thank you. I may even be convinced. I already want a world where communication only happens by consent, and framing this change as fundamentally coercive makes sense. One may object on the basis of wanting the consumer to consume "the whole thing", however I think that's easy to dismiss. I think I'm convinced. Your second paragraph, about chain of trust, gets a…

I haven't read the proposal in depth. But skimming, this stands out:

> With the web environment integrity API, websites will be able to request a token that attests key facts about the environment their client code is running in. For example, this API will show that a user is operating a web client on a secure Android device. Tampering with the attestation will be prevented by signing the tokens cryptographically.

I don't see what else this could be referring to besides bringing TPM "remote attestation" up through the software stack to the level of a web browser. By "secure" Android it must mean one running a corporate Android distribution (see: SafetyNet), where Google has already been pushing this lockdown dynamic for a few years at least. Without tying it into the TPM, there would be literally no point to this specification as it could always be faked.

The insidious thing about this spec is that it's not an immediate prescriptive lockdown the way corporate "secure" boot is. Rather if it turns on tomorrow, Firefox, extensions, and community Linux distributions will all still work fine. But the long term dynamic is that each of these nonstandard things will be stamped out in the name of "security" - look at how the SafetyNet requirements on Android are getting incrementally harder to "pass".

Fundamentally this is entirely about consensual interactions. Right now, the demarcation point between user interests and website/server/company interests is the communications protocol itself. Your computer represents your interests, my computer represents my interests, and they possibly communicate with each other while still representing each of our interests. Remote parties that you're communicating with being able to verify what code you are running means they are then able to dictate what code you must run, even when it undermines your interests. Your only recourse becomes to not communicate, which doesn't work in our world of imbalanced power relationships. Computing's revolutionary spark of personal autonomy gets shoved back in the bottle as far as the Web is concerned.

> centralized gate keepers determining what we can do with our systems. Or at least, that will be the default unless you can get grandpa's old TPM-free linux laptop working again

There's some nuance here. Likely you will still be able to "jail break" new devices, or even root them in a supported way like Google's current Android devices. But doing so will make the device useless for accessing any website that insists on performing the verification. So sure, you can keep on using your nonstandard development environments just fine - most of the Web will be unavailable to it though.

You will just need a second WebTV like device for accessing banking websites, then shopping websites, then news websites. As I said, anywhere that currently pops up CAPTCHAs when browsing from less-surveillable IPs is a good indicator for the eventual adoption path. Said device will implement all the restrictions the website publishers can dream of - ads, lack of copy/paste, no screenshots, no access by VNC, no browser extensions, no protection from corporate surveillance, etc.

> And even if you do, you won't be able to connect it to the future internet to do anything real

That's a long way off and doesn't have any technical connection to this proposal. But one can imagine this proposal being one step in a chain of developments/legislation that brings us to that point.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#526
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe so, but asking somebody to not go to shows of their favorite bands anymore as a form of protest against Ticketmaster and/or Google is a bit much. Unfortunately, some venues seem to be Ticketmaster only at this point. Sometimes you’ve got to choose your battles.

I never used ticketmaster and it is not a monopoly. Choose the right company to sell you tickets.

Ticketmaster is the only company selling tickets to several venues, there is no choice of who to buy from available there.

The only choice is to boycott your favorite artist because their record label made a deal with the wrong company. That's too many layers of indirection, for many fans.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about Jitsi? https://meet.jit.si/ It's free and open source, works everywhere, has stuff like background replacement, and doesn't require signup at all.

Jitsi is super easy to use, and I still can't get older people to use it. They just hear "Zoom" on CNN so they think, "I'm supposed to use Zoom. Other things are weird." So much behavior is just driven by anxiety and habituation.

Well Zoom also isn't Meet, so for the purposes of this conversation that seems like an advantage actually?

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#528
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to just using Firefox, people can donate to the Mozilla Foundation. I give a few bucks every month. https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/who-we-are/

Almost none of that money goes to the development of Firefox though.

That which is claimed without evidence can be dismissed without analysis.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#529
post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never used ticketmaster and it is not a monopoly. Choose the right company to sell you tickets.

Surely you've been to shows at every possible venue to be able to extrapolate that bold of a claim from your personal experience?

No but appart from festivals (which were not relying on ticket master) I haven't seen tickets sold by only one company. Usually there are different ones and also some plain old in person in ticket office of department stores.
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