Reddit’s blackout protest is set to continue indefinitely • Hacker News Board

Re: Reddit’s blackout protest is set to continue indefinitely

#521

Post by JumpCrisscross » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 6:41 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #501

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's no reason it won't end the same as Reddit if you don't have federation, so you actually can't scoop out 90% of users because they might as well stay on Reddit It will end up like Reddit. But right now it isn't, and that's good enough to make a play for the users. Given a choice between that and choosing a server, signing up, finding its log-in unresponsive, looking for another server, signing up... (I haven…

I think we do largely agree here. However, I think it should be noted that the current migration is largely driven by moderators and power-users, not the 90% of users that don't really care, so I don't think there actually is any competitive opportunity. I think that you're right in that the sign up UX is not great - there are also serious performance concerns, and in many ways the platform isn't ready yet. But I don…

> current migration is largely driven by moderators and power-users, not the 90% of users that don't really care, so I don't think there actually is any competitive opportunity

Power users' power is users. We've frequently seen the celebs-first gambit by new social media entrants, most notably Clubhouse, and while it can generate hype for a bit, it's far from a proven strategy. It's frustrating to watch a re-play of Mastodon's fumbles, particularly since this time the protest is actually semi-organized.

Re: Reddit’s blackout protest is set to continue indefinitely

#522

Post by kristopolous » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 6:42 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #495

kristopolous wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ICQ? AIM? AOL chat rooms? I think there were many options at the time. Maybe the DCC transfer and easy scriptabilty thanks to Khaled Mardam-Bey's mIRC might be a valid claim. Perhaps also the impermanence of the history of the channels afforded certain types of interactions that you wouldn't do with you know, theoretically forever scrollbacks. I guess this brings us back to classical marketing about how you can't hav…

> ICQ? AIM? AOL chat rooms? 1988 versus 1996 and 1997, respectively. AOL proper was an IRC competitor, as was CompuServe, but their definitions of working weren't different from IRC's.

That's not a useful comparison. The fact that IRC existed in 1988 does not bring a user onboard in 2004.

That same argument didn't save WAIS, Fido, or Gopher. Nor did it keep Tymnet or Bitnet around and didn't give Compuserve and The Well a seat at the winners table. It also wasn't a saving grace for Friendster, MySpace, or LiveJournal.

Magnavox putting out the first home gaming console in 1972 hasn't made them a gaming juggernaut nor does Xerox run the desktop. Neither Palm, Go or IBM makes my smartphone nor is my laptop by Grid Compass, desktop by MITS, spreadsheet by VisiOn or my pants from Arnold Constable. I don't fly Western Air Express, drive a Rickett, subscribe to RealNetworks Rhapsody for music nor am I posting this on slashdot.org.

Citing an early creation date is a survivorship fallacy here.

The real question here is why didn't it die like everything else. Why is it one of the few legacy survivors?

Re: Reddit’s blackout protest is set to continue indefinitely

#523

Post by nullityrofl » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 6:42 PM UTC

redundantly wrote: post #506

nullityrofl wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you sound an awful lot like a luddite. I'm not sure if this is meant to be some kind of childish insult or gotcha but no: I'm talking in representation of luddites. > A social network doesn't require millions of users to be useful. It's okay that they're not for everyone. That might be true if you only ever want to read technical things with a technical audience in a technical forum. But that's not why Reddit is va…

> I'm not sure if this is meant to be some kind of childish insult or gotcha but no: I'm talking in representation of luddites. No, it's an observation. You're insisting things have to work a certain way in order for them to have value and be usable. Things don't have to operate in a specific, fixed way. Saying decentralisation will never catch on because it doesn't fit your description of accessibility is like sayin…

> You're insisting things have to work a certain way in order for them to have value and be usable. Things don't have to operate in a specific, fixed way.

No, I'm not. I'm staying on the topic of the thread you're posting in: Reddit's future and where people may or may not migrate to. You're doing exactly what I accused the creators of Fediverse technologies are doing: fixating on the ideology and taking an opportunity to preach.

I see the value of the Fediverse. I see the intent. I understand it. It's not complex.

But it isn't a replacement for Reddit. I don't even think you're arguing that. I think you're trying to get me to debate some strawman. I never said the Fediverse has no value. I said it has no mainstream appeal so long as people prioritize the ideology of the technology over the use case.

> Things change. How people learn about stuff, how they use technologies, how they think about them, it all changes. It was once a widely shared opinion that computers would never catch on. Or that the internet wouldn't catch on. Or any other number of things wouldn't catch on. And they did, despite anyone's objections that it would.

This is an argument that things _can_ change not that things _will_ change. Plenty of things never caught on. On that note, Diaspora existed as a widely available alternative to Digg when Digg died.

But people ended up on Reddit anyway.

Re: Reddit’s blackout protest is set to continue indefinitely

#524

Post by jangxx » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 6:43 PM UTC

redundantly wrote: post #422

nullityrofl wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Federated services will never become mainstream. This is just the reality that people need to come to accept. I find them heavily talked about in circles with my colleagues and in my profession but the attraction of decentralized services just isn't there for the vast majority of people. I find Lemmy frustrating to use and it isn't just growing pains: it's the same reason I find Mastodon frustrating. Do I care if use…

> Federated services will never become mainstream That's kind of the point Mastadon, Lemmy, Etc, they're not replacements for Reddit or Facebook. They're an alternative. A social network doesn't require millions of users to be useful. It's okay that they're not for everyone. > Centralization works. It's convenient. It doesn't require a user guide. It's approachable for laypersons. For a technically inclined person on…

>There used to be a high barrier to entry for accessing the internet and making use of it.

While this was a bit before my time, I can definitely relate to spending hours or days to get something to work that I want to use. I think the difference is just that all the fediverse services don't really seem all that useful. If I open the frontpage of any "reddit alternative" right now, the top posts have a few hundred votes and a few dozen comments at most. There is simply too little activity here (that I care about) that would make it worth it for me to really get into it. I browsed reddit for entertainment and discussions and right now, none of the fediverse services I've looked at actually provide that.

Re: Reddit’s blackout protest is set to continue indefinitely

#525

Post by opello » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 6:43 PM UTC

trostaft wrote: post #10

Perhaps you should link to the actual article, as opposed to the reddit thread about the article... https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/reddit-blackout-date-end-...

It seems there's an interesting lever presented in the article: comment about the support being provided to the platform that is so adversely affecting the users so that the advertisers are exposed more directly to the impact.

Re: Reddit’s blackout protest is set to continue indefinitely

#526

Post by 6510 » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 6:45 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #424

TechBro8615 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lemmy has the same discoverability and usability problems as Mastodon. Especially for non-technical users, there's too much friction required to find their communities and aggregate them into a single usable feed with a nice client. And that's assuming they can even conceptualize what the fediverse is. I'm a technical user, and I closed join-lemmy.org after ten seconds because it was too many clicks to get to an inte…

The front page of lemmy: Lemmy - A link aggregator for the fediverse. Join a Server - Run a Server - Follow communities anywhere in the world Lemmy is a selfhosted social link aggregation and discussion platform. No, no. You lead with the benefits to the user. This isn't Github. It suffers from the same problem as Mastodon - "Join a server". But which one? These federated things need to be set up so that there's "no…

Or to put it more generally, you have to look at your product or tool from the perspective of the laziest dumbest most unreasonable kind of people you want as the audience. You are not to complaint about how lazy they are, how dumb or how unreasonable, there are thousands just like them - shut up and do your job :-)

The mega pun is that if you are hard working, intelligent and reasonable this is going to be incredibly hard for you. You are going to need help from someone who is non of those things.

Re: Reddit’s blackout protest is set to continue indefinitely

#527

Post by stephenitis » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 6:46 PM UTC

perlgeek wrote: post #474

I supports the blackout. Yet, addicted me still occasionally opens reddit. And all the content I see is from communities that did not black out, or returned, so all the content is from communities that at least a part of my says I shouldn't want to see. Kinda kills the fun.

I feel you too, the boycott is hard.

Re: Reddit’s blackout protest is set to continue indefinitely

#528

Post by BaseballPhysics » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 6:46 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #457

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "drama", it's protecting their community from an instance that's currently being bombed by trolls. Seriously, the concern trolling around here regarding federation is almost comical. Apparently when major private corporation admins or volunteer mods arbitrarily intervene in the functioning of a platform it's totally fine, but when local server admins do it by moderating locally or de-federating from problem…

It's not concern trolling, drama exists because everyone gets distracted by organized trolling and federation stans don't have a good answer for this problem. Federation is confusing and alienating to non-technical users, and nerds who love federation tend to have a mediocre grasp of social dynamics and gloss over the inevitable abuses. Federation stans need to grasp the fact that nobody who is not a full time nerd c…

> drama exists because everyone gets distracted by organized trolling and federation stans don't have a good answer for this problem.

Neither does Reddit. Have you not heard of brigading?

Re: Reddit’s blackout protest is set to continue indefinitely

#529

Post by Applejinx » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 6:46 PM UTC

addandsubtract wrote: post #418

bena wrote: post #43

All reddit has to do is remove the ability for subreddits to be private. Or put the ability to make subreddits private behind a paywall. Much like how Github treated private repos. End of the day, reddit is going to have to figure out how many users are willing to boycott. Moderators are one thing. They are a minority. But if they remove the ability for /r/funny to be private, would users honor the protest? The subs…

If reddit opens up private subs without their mods, users will lynch the place.

If Reddit opens up private subs without their mods, spammers and trolls will obliterate the subs for trivial profits or to teach the former mods a lesson, and there won't be anything left for users to trash.

Re: Reddit’s blackout protest is set to continue indefinitely

#530

Post by JumpCrisscross » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 6:47 PM UTC

kristopolous wrote: post #522

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ICQ? AIM? AOL chat rooms? 1988 versus 1996 and 1997, respectively. AOL proper was an IRC competitor, as was CompuServe, but their definitions of working weren't different from IRC's.

That's not a useful comparison. The fact that IRC existed in 1988 does not bring a user onboard in 2004. That same argument didn't save WAIS, Fido, or Gopher. Nor did it keep Tymnet or Bitnet around and didn't give Compuserve and The Well a seat at the winners table. It also wasn't a saving grace for Friendster, MySpace, or LiveJournal. Magnavox putting out the first home gaming console in 1972 hasn't made them a gam…

> Citing an early creation date is a survivorship fallacy here

Separate problems: getting off the ground versus surviving.

IRC got off the ground because it didn't have centralized competition with a capability advantage. Why it persisted is a deeper story. Lemmy is still trying to get off the ground. It, unlike IRC, does have such competition. As such, the old playbook is obsolete.