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Apple Vision

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Re: Apple Vision

#521

Post by medvezhenok »

endisneigh wrote: post #118
saiya-jin wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not projection, rather well known cases that specifically porn enabled technologies like VHS to gather mass adoption, even over technologically superior tech. Like it or not, doesn't matter if on extreme left or right or anywhere in between, people en masse like it. That they often don't admit it publicly is another topic. Can't beat a billion years of evolution baked into the very foundation of each of us.

Yes but this isn't VHS. When's the last time porn was the major driving factor? You're about the 70s and 80s - might as well be an entirety ago as far as tech is concerned. People thinking porn is going to be what drives adoption of this are insane. It'll most likely be productivity and vertical integration.

This is how you know you're in an engineer bubble.

Average people care much less about productivity than you think.

Re: Apple Vision

#522

Post by cubefox »

ugh123 wrote: post #520
cubefox wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not with VR controllers. They didn't even show a single VR game. It seems unlikely that a company would make a VR game for the headset if you can't even play it without VR controllers. For smartphones and tablets games also default to the imprecise touch controls, which are a poor solution.

Apple is wise to leave controllers up to the accessory market to develop and evolve. Let those companies create the ecosystem for this singular device that might have limited opportunity to create accessories outside of head straps and battery packs.

Third party controllers for the headset likely wouldn't sell for the same reason smartphone game controllers don't sell.

Re: Apple Vision

#523

Post by interpol_p »

taeric wrote: post #290
interpol_p wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reality-shaping power of Apple's demo maestros is truly admirable. It really isn't just the demos that wow us, and it isn't just the high-end device. The device is packed with tech, for sure. But 80% of the story here is Apple's strong design choices: "Here's how you will interact with the world. Here's how other people fit in. This is how UI is going to display. We rewrote our entire UI stack on top of a physi…

Pretty sure if I have my headset on and I'm in the middle of the room with my kids, I'm not a "hip father" doing cool shit with my kids. Consider if this was someone on a phone in the kitchen discussing something. We wouldn't think, "how progressive this person is to have work conversations while mostly ignoring his kids." Granted, as a parent, the scene of the airline person upset that there is a kid on the flight i…

Oh I totally agree. The scenes with parents/kids were so off, and felt emotionally jarring

> And I am struggling to see any UI design/consideration that was new in this clip. Do you have a rundown on exactly what was amazing?

The State of the Union video has more detail. All of SwiftUI and UIKit now sits on top of their material-based renderer. You can now render a Metal Shader on a SwiftUI view in one line of code. They have consistent and detailed paradigms for how menus, toolbars, productivity apps etc should work on this platform (likely from porting all of their own). 3D models fit seamlessly into the UI view hierarchy. They have detailed design and interaction constraints for all new types of spatial windows, as well as legacy apps. All of this even goes back to their Objective-C APIs, which are updated appropriately

Then they've implemented things like process isolation for eye-gaze tracking. Simply so apps can't read your gaze and abuse that data. No one else makes decisions like this in a v1 product. It probably required a whole team of people to get right, considering that gaze is the primary interaction method a user will be using with your app

It's hard to explain just how much depth of thought has been put into this platform. They have addressed a lot of hard questions with some very good design, and above all, they are opinionated about their platform. In every corner and detail there is a strong design choice about the right way to design and implement that interaction. That opinionated design is why people get so excited, and it can be so jarring when they get it wrong

Re: Apple Vision

#524

Post by randmeerkat »

TheNewsIsHere wrote: post #505
randmeerkat wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s fair, I’m not trying to be argumentative, normally I would agree with you on the AR applications of medicine. However, given the debut of ChatGPT this year, I really do wonder if AGI will be doing the kinds of analysis you’re talking about before AR is at the level of being able to do it with a human.

:) I didn’t read your comment as argumentative. I hope I didn’t come off that way. That’s an astute point! I hadn’t considered that there may be a bit of a race between AR/VR and AI/ML in medicine. Ideally the strengths of both technologies would be incorporated into well defined products eventually. As long as we are damn careful to properly label, review, and check AI generated medical information.

> :) I didn’t read your comment as argumentative. I hope I didn’t come off that way.

:) I didn’t read your comments as argumentative either, this is actually a great conversation, thanks!

> That’s an astute point! I hadn’t considered that there may be a bit of a race between AR/VR and AI/ML in medicine.

Thank you, it’s a new idea I’ve been thinking on.

> Ideally the strengths of both technologies would be incorporated into well defined products eventually.

I couldn’t agree more. I feel like there must be some fusion of VR/AR/LLM technologies that I’m missing.

Re: Apple Vision

#525

Post by magarnicle »

eep_social wrote: post #396
jmbwell wrote: post #111

This article is dead on, all the way to the end. Takes a few minutes to read, but its observations on the market position of the device, all the way to the individual/social ramifications and the relevance vis a vis Meta, are as sharp as anything I’ve read about this yet. If it seems like he’s gushing, he is. He’s speaking as someone who has seen lots of these devices and, in his view, this hardware and software outc…

> If it seems like he’s gushing, he is. This is how he writes. If you ever read him on a topic where you are an actual expert, you’ll probably never bother reading him again.

Does it make a difference that he acknowledges he is gushing?

Re: Apple Vision

#526

Post by taeric »

ugh123 wrote: post #519
taeric wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, I didn't mean this to mean that it won't work. I meant it more that the gestures are almost certainly going to get very limited use. Much like gestures for your phone. Neat, and can be rehearsed for good demos. So, the idea that you will have a mobile workspace that can go with you where ever you want it is unlikely to actually work. Is it easier than taking a monitor? I mean, sure. Probably not as easy as tak…

I think Apple is making a statement regarding control of Vision in that _there is no one great solution_ for fine control using a peripheral device, and any attempt to do so could go outdated or obsolete with a different peripheral device. So why try to build one at all? Many VR companies/devices have come up with their own takes on controllers, only to have them updated/replaced within subsequent models. Apple is ma…

But that also cuts to the "gestures", they will not work well and will get outdated. Rapidly.

Re: Apple Vision

#527

Post by taeric »

cubefox wrote: post #510
euroderf wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IR dot-patterns will be its own problem. And I hope you never want to curl up on that couch to watch a movie with a blanket. :D Speaking of which, notice how nobody who was relying on finger gestures (rather than a keyboard) was using menus, or doing anything mouse-like. Just scrolling and clicking.

You point to things by looking at it, which is very precise according to people who have tried it, like MKBHD. Clicking and dragging is done by finger pinching. So it works quite similar to a touchscreen or a mouse.

That mechanic is available in some games on the PS5. Works decently well, but nowhere near as well as the controller pointing does.

Re: Apple Vision

#528

Post by taeric »

interpol_p wrote: post #523
taeric wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure if I have my headset on and I'm in the middle of the room with my kids, I'm not a "hip father" doing cool shit with my kids. Consider if this was someone on a phone in the kitchen discussing something. We wouldn't think, "how progressive this person is to have work conversations while mostly ignoring his kids." Granted, as a parent, the scene of the airline person upset that there is a kid on the flight i…

Oh I totally agree. The scenes with parents/kids were so off, and felt emotionally jarring > And I am struggling to see any UI design/consideration that was new in this clip. Do you have a rundown on exactly what was amazing? The State of the Union video has more detail. All of SwiftUI and UIKit now sits on top of their material-based renderer. You can now render a Metal Shader on a SwiftUI view in one line of code.…

The "material-based renderer" sounds... fluff? Most any system should have it so that rendering a menu is a single line of code. Same for toolbars and other. Those are typically simple registrations of ("name" "description" handler). Anything more that that, and you are doing tailored menu/toolbar and are straying on purpose.

That leads, then, to the spatial windows and APIs that go with them. And... quite frankly, I have zero faith that anybody can pull off a V1 for that API. Expect churn and capability growth.

For the process isolation on eye-gaze tracking... assuming you can get "hover" events for things you are gazing at, than I fail to see how they can keep you from reading the gaze. I expect they will try and lock down abuses of that, but as soon as you enable coding against what a user is looking at, developers will find a way to leak that.

And if they expect that the primary way I will interact with an application is by looking at it.... that feels very very sad, all told. I don't want to just look at things, I want to manipulate them. And for that, I am almost certainly going to want some haptic/tactile interaction. Such that this won't live on its own.

Happy to be proven wrong, of course. And, for what it is, this does look impressive. I just don't buy the marketing spin on it, at the moment. Way way way too "dreams work, bro!"

Re: Apple Vision

#529

Post by retrocryptid »

jedberg wrote: post #419
retrocryptid wrote: post #323

So... what's the killer app for this thing? Best I can tell it's a status symbol for a particular type of computer nerd. But blather about the Apple "Vision" has replaced blather about GPT based chatbots on HN, so I am thankful for that. But I am not being facetious when I say that I don't see any application for the technology that justifies the $3500 price tag. But I'm more than willing to be educated. Is BMW going…

The power in the headset makes it sound like it replaces your laptop. So for $3,500 I get a new laptop plus a 100 inch screen. To buy those separately would be far more than $3,500. In my case I plan to buy it on day one because I want it for working. I'm tired of having to choose enjoying the nice weather outside while using a tiny 15 inch laptop screen or being inside at my desk with my 3 32" screens. With Apple Vi…

I think you get two 1.5" screens with half the resolution of my 34" monitor.

If your 3 32 inch screens are running collectively at 2.1k bits, they must be pretty old. Why not just keep them? They're fully depreciated.

And it runs an entirely new OS, so I have to buy apps for it again. Or cope with VisionSafari being slightly different than desktop safari and wait for Adobe to support it.

When I want to go outside, I just take my laptop outside. It's much easier to see in the full light. Plus, I can change the distance of things I focus on, which is supposedly good for vision.

But I was asking about the "killer app." What can you do with this thing that you can't do with a laptop, phone or desktop computer?

Re: Apple Vision

#530

Post by retrocryptid »

whatarethembits wrote: post #483
killerstorm wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kinda doubt it would be comfortable to wear it for 8+ hours... I can't use Quest 2 for more than 30 minutes at a time: sweating, eye strain, etc.

This is v1, I think it’d be a safe bet that those things won’t be an issue in v10. Have to start somewhere, and this is one heck of a start.

We've been working on fixing those issues since 1985. In the past decade we've gone from 20% of people getting nauseous wearing hmds to 17% of people getting nauseous.

Is it just because it's an iProduct that it will magically not have the same problems?

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