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Why I Left Rust

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#521

Post by vasachi »

thiht wrote: post #198
Oddskar wrote: post #136

How petty are you as a person if you disregard your peers and screw someone over just because you're "uncomfortable" with a technical article? Can we just stop with this intolerance of differing opinions? It's OK to disagree with someone. We don't need to all share the same opinions. Why the fuck would you have a conference if not to inject some healthy discourse in your community?

Also how can someone be « uncomfortable » about a technical article? You can disagree, you can dislike it, you can even think it’s stupid, but uncomfortable? Wtf

Once on a conference one guy gave a talk about how he overrode python's module loading to load them from a mongodb instance. The reason was, if I remember correclty, because "it was easier for the juniors".

It made me veeeeeeeeery uncomfortable. Still a very good talk.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#522

Post by bckr »

kaashif wrote: post #454
vector_spaces wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a few reasons that people prefer the term nonwhite over POC in certain contexts, and I think most people using it are using it intentionally because of them. The main issue is that the latter term is homogenizing: > Political scientist Angelo Falcón argues that the use of broad terms like "person of color" is offensive because it aggregates diverse communities and projects "a false unity" that "obscure[s] t…

I'm pretty sure "person of colour" means literally the same thing as "non white" in the US, I find it hard to care about such minor differences in phrasing.

It’s annoying but important for those of us grappling with the long term effects of slavery and segregation and continued anti-blackness.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#523

Post by sxhunga »

A so-called "Leadership" cannot bring out of the conference what I think differently. Leadership must have the power of the word if it has a mind in the head. I think these are the traits of Leadership.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#524

Post by wly_cdgr »

indy wrote: post #88
junon wrote: post #77

Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…

Much less weight should be given to someone "feeling uncomfortable" Rust the language is pretty good but the community around it has become really off-putting. The thick veneer of empathy and compassion quickly devolves into "idiot compassion" and emotional blackmail. Even the linked post contains the following: "I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart…

Yeah seriously. Still putting my eyes back into their sockets after they rolled out from reading that

Re: Why I Left Rust

#525

Post by [deleted] »

Taywee wrote: post #519
ra1231963 wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a certain irrational hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies. Really? Nothing against a thing that leads to hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies!?

They said "in theory", which is a contrast to "in practice".

[deleted]

Re: Why I Left Rust

#526

Post by chrsig »

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #380
vector_spaces wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a few reasons that people prefer the term nonwhite over POC in certain contexts, and I think most people using it are using it intentionally because of them. The main issue is that the latter term is homogenizing: > Political scientist Angelo Falcón argues that the use of broad terms like "person of color" is offensive because it aggregates diverse communities and projects "a false unity" that "obscure[s] t…

> The main issue is that the latter term is homogenizing: By that logic, white would be homgenizing as well, or? Someone from Prague has little in common with a person from Massachusetts or St. Petersburg.

I'd look towards stratified sampling to think more formally around the issue.

POC is homogonizing because it's reducing the space from N strata to 2: white and non-white, blending n-1 strata.

Per wikipedia:

> Stratification is the process of dividing members of the population into homogeneous subgroups before sampling. The strata should define a partition of the population. That is, it should be collectively exhaustive and mutually exclusive: every element in the population must be assigned to one and only one stratum. Then simple random sampling is applied within each stratum

Using this definition, white and non-white are mutually exclusive, while location of origin forms a different axis for comparison.

In more social sciences, you might look to intersectionality for an explanation.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratified_sampling

[1] https://www.nasponline.org/resources-and-publications/resour...

Re: Why I Left Rust

#527

Post by jjgreen »

Georgelemental wrote: post #483
ericyd wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "a person of color" (as if white is not a color, but whatever) You might want to look into the historical basis for this term before you make snarky comments about it. It comes across as dismissive. My understanding is the term "person of color" evolved from "colored" (which originally just meant black (in America at least)) and now encompasses non-white people.

"Colored" is now considered offensive by most, so why isn't "person of color" also viewed the same way? Both terms describe the same opressive system of nonsense racial hierarchy, after all.

This strange dichotomy caught-out Benedict Cumberbatch some years back https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/jan/26/benedict-cum...

Re: Why I Left Rust

#528

Post by ssokolow »

tialaramex wrote: post #193
arijun wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your statement as a whole but have a small nitpick (on your small nitpick) > as if white is not a color But ‘person of color’ doesn’t include white people in the same way that ‘anti-semitic’ doesn’t include racism against Arabs. Yes, Arabs are also of Semitic descent, and yes white is a color, the meanings are not one-to-one mapped from their components. To deny that is to deny large portions of the Engl…

Yup. The actual meaning of a composite symbol cannot in general be guessed from its constituent elements. This is pernicious in languages where the writing system has even a little of such character, and leads to stuff like e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_word_for_%22crisis%22 It's OK to use this sort of playing with words in your stand-up routine, (e.g. Tylor Tomlinson's "Lot of my friends are settling do…

Not to mention the fact that construction can be messy for other reasons. I present a bit from George Carlin's routine on airline announcements:

"Here's one they just made up: Near miss. When two planes almost collide, they call it a near miss. It's a near hit! A COLLISION is a near miss. explosion sound Look, they nearly missed! YES, BUT NOT QUITE!"

Re: Why I Left Rust

#529

Post by dagmx »

klyrs wrote: post #504
dagmx wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I, for one, would love to see compile-time reflection in Rust and I'm genuinely curious how somebody exploring the feasibility of that feature could make anybody feel uncomfortable . As a minority, I've been subject to firm decisions made on the basis of extremely dubious reasoning before. Is it bias? Who knows, it's never clear-cut in any specific example. But when it just seems to keep happening and nobody can expl…

I share your experience here.

I’m a minority, and arguably now considered an industry expert as well in my domain (graphics). The vast majority of time I’m the only minority involved in several circles.

I am trying to raise diversity in these groups, across age, ethnicity and gender.

But it’s so difficult to do when few others also join in that effort. Not because they’re necessarily bigoted (though some are), but they don’t see it.

The only effective means I’ve found is to actually highlight the disparity between diversity in the industry versus representation in the committees. Then suddenly people have an amazing colleague that they forgot to invite, or a rising star Junior dev who could be mentored into the role.

Sometimes people just need to be reminded that the status quo isn’t above questioning and that they have their own implicit biases that they just never reflect on.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#530

Post by epistasis »

pdimitar wrote: post #513
epistasis wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't think of it as an active act of creating exclusion, but of a state that just happened. Doesn't matter how, it could be completely natural, unintentional, and just how growth happened. It is also almost certainly the case that nobody is being actively excluded (well except maybe from a keynote). But appearances matter, and why have a poor appearance that could come from a bad place when a better one is possible?

OK, but what can be done then to avoid this "poor appearance" exactly? The black speaker pulled out. It's their decision to make. What can be done?

Continue on with the conference, learn from the current situation, and try again in the future.

That's why I'm encouraged that this conversation is happening, because it's the path to the better future.

The only really wrong response to this would be to shut down, close one's mind, and decide that the problem is the controversy itself, rather than the greater social situation of which this conference is just one small part. It's a programming language, it's not meant to solve social problems, after all. But governance and social structures are inherent to programming languages, and they should try to fit into the larger social structure of society (around the world) and if they want to be widely adopted, learn to appeal to wider and wider audiences.

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