Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words • Hacker News Board

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#521

Post by revelio » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 9:13 AM UTC

mihaic wrote: post #238

wizofaus wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The music and films are a big part of what conveys the American way of thinking about the world surely? I'll only genuinely start worrying about the Americanisation of world if the US somehow starts successfully exporting its insane attitudes towards guns, women's bodies and universal healthcare. Oh, and imperial units...

The US has managed to export significant parts of its political discourse in places where it makes no sense to have those discussions, simply by controlling global news. I think you underestimate how much this is.

They don't control global news. How many people watch Fox or CNN outside the USA?

The actual way this gets exported is via the HR firms and executive picks of American corporations. That then affects the funding of movies, TV shows, video games and everything downstream of that.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#522

Post by revelio » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 9:17 AM UTC

uejfiweun wrote: post #113

ghusto wrote: post #95

On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved. How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? On the other hand: I think countries should resist global cultural homogenisation. No of…

> rather the way of thinking about the world. As an American who has lived in the US my whole life, it can be tough to see outside the box, so to speak. What parts of the US worldview are being exported? How does it differ with traditional attitudes?

For some reason you've got two replies talking about the "far right", missionaries in Africa and other weirdness that doesn't apply to Europe and never comes up anywhere.

The way most people experience this is partisan ideological fighting that spills out into the rest of the world, especially left wing social movements. This is how you get people yelling "hands up don't shoot" at unarmed British police, and BLM marches in central European cities where there's no history of slavery and famously civilized police. It makes no sense in the local cultural context but people are bored and copy what they see on TV and social media.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#523

Post by Hendrikto » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 9:18 AM UTC

Quarrelsome wrote: post #149

ghusto wrote: post #95

On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved. How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? On the other hand: I think countries should resist global cultural homogenisation. No of…

I don't think its necessarily about the culture itself here, its merely a cheap populist tactic to rabble-rouse among a nation that has a rich history and struggles to handle the fact that its present isn't at that zenith. France do a lot of this sort of thing too. I would argue that belittling cultural preservation demonstrates deep Anglo-centric bias. While its fine for lulz, I worry that you're being sincere. Try…

> Try asking _anyone_ who doesn't have English as their first language in a serious context how they feel about their language and you'll struggle to find someone without a genuine fondness for it.

I‘m German, and I don‘t care for that language. It‘s unnecessarily complex.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#524

Post by revelio » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 9:20 AM UTC

pyrale wrote: post #466

relativ575 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> are actively trying to export themselves to Europe What are the evidence of this? Has there been an uptick in American right-wings activities in Europe?

An example of it: https://www.politico.eu/article/roe-vs-wade-us-the-european-...

That's not a cultural export. Opposition to abortion is found around the world and European abortion laws were generally more tough than US laws before Roe v Wade was overturned. Opposition to abortion is largely associated with Catholicism which is far stronger in Europee and Latin America than North America.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#525

Post by orwin » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 9:21 AM UTC

vic-traill wrote: post #354

ghusto wrote: post #95

On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved. How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? On the other hand: I think countries should resist global cultural homogenisation. No of…

> Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved A counter to this is the Académie Française [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%C3%A9mie_Fran%C3%A7aise

This is the French thing that I'm the most ashamed of. I'd rather defend Napoleon post 4th coalition or any king post Henry IV than the 'académie française'

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#526

Post by porkbrain » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 9:25 AM UTC

Perhaps this is going to be the first step in Italy becoming real world Anathem.

Jokes aside, I understand the fear of your own language erroding in front of you. I see how this plays into the sentiment of "these goddamn young people, polluting the language of my youth with words I don't understand!"

Yet, after calming down my own emotions, I realise that I cherish the Polish and German words in my own accent of Czech. I value immensely the work of Czech intellectuals fighting for my language against German "overlords" in the 19th century. However, I wouldn't want to give up the trace influence of German on own language. I hope future Italians feel the same way.

I think about this general problematic often. My girlfriend and I are both Czech. Yet, considerable chunk of our conversation happens in English. We both intellectually grew and continue to grow with English, making it typically a more effective modus of discussion. But Czech has its unassailable place in our relationship. The fact that we use both languages and associated idioms, cultural baggage, ..., makes for a richer life.

Good luck to other non native speakers who have to ponder and navigate the same concerns about their identity.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#527

Post by revelio » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 9:28 AM UTC

schnitzelstoat wrote: post #510

Aeolun wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t say they favor immigration, but they’re dealing with it as gracefully as possible, under the circumstances.

But they voted for the politicians that adopted those immigration policies - it doesn't happen by itself.

Those policies aren't actually popular though. They were were forced by the EU, other pan-European NGOs and a political class that has things nicely sewn up (i.e. if the major parties agree then you have nobody to vote for). Europe has a democratic deficit that gets airbrushed out a lot of the time.

The UK had to leave the entire thing to try and get immigration under control and have still totally failed - they can't even deport illegal immigrants because the EU Court of Human Rights decided that deportation is against human rights. So now maybe the UK has to leave that too except, ah ha, supporters of that system wrote membership into various other agreements and so on. Same way it's always done in Europe. Everything is made to depend on everything else as a way to disempower the electorate.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#528

Post by revelio » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 9:30 AM UTC

pkaye wrote: post #453

_vbnz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it was shocking here in Stockholm when there were BLM protests in 2020. It's like people are more involved in US politics than their national politics.

I notice that foreign media tends to focus a lot of things that happen in US. In some countries its even used to distract for what is happening locally. Another thing is Europeans like to blame US for their own problems. For example the British complain that the NHS is getting privatized because of the US. The reality is they picked terrible politicians to run the country and they keep reelecting them.

The European left does like to engage in US bashing, but you won't find many British conservatives making claims like that about the USA. And it's the conservatives who tend to win elections. So, don't generalize too far.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#529

Post by pmontra » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 9:46 AM UTC

Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #474

pmontra wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power unit is alimentatore. All words in my second list are translated in Italian with the words you provided. Yes, database is base di dati but it's seldom used as such. Calcolatore is the calculator app nowadays :-)

I'm used to call it power supplier, hence wasn't sure about the translation (my English is at fault here). And indeed if you say "calcolatore", I interpret that as the calculator app (or any small math-only calculators used in school)

We are both wrong, you less than me. The correct term is power supply. A power unit is the hybrid engine of Formula 1 cars :-)

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#530

Post by pmontra » Mon, Apr 03, 2023, 9:47 AM UTC

pmontra wrote: post #463

totetsu wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the english words spoken in a way that follows italian phonic patterns(vowel sounds and consonant vowel pairs)? How does grammatical gender work for loan words, or newly made up words?

They are spoken with an Italian accent that fits into the Italian sentence they are used in. I think this is common to all languages, they import foreign words and adapt them at least to the accent of the language. I don't think that the tt in spaghetti has the same sound in English and Italian. Italian words must have a gender, there is no neutral. Computer, mouse, touchscreen and touchpad are male. Power unit is fe…

Edit: power unit is actually power supply.