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Nearly Half of San Franciscans Have Been Victims of Theft, New Poll Says

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Re: Nearly Half of San Franciscans Have Been Victims of Theft, New Poll Says

#521

Post by baby »

mancerayder wrote: post #418
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reading this headline I thought to myself, this can't be possible. But then I remembered It's funny, this is exactly what happens when I talk to my SF friends about crime. They have an immediate defensive reaction to insist it's not that bad, but then they slowly start recalling various crime experiences they've had in the past year . It's as if the constant background level of crime has reset their expectations of…

Isn't part of that the forced-positive culture of California? Combined with perhaps a dose of worry that complaining about crime might identify you with the wrong political party?

No

Re: Nearly Half of San Franciscans Have Been Victims of Theft, New Poll Says

#522

Post by joenot443 »

tchaffee wrote: post #516
mcntsh wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the shocking part is that you have all of this theft and crime and grit, all happening around people making hundreds of thousands a year living in multi million dollar houses. Go look at the tax revenue of San Francisco vs Albuquerque. It's unacceptable for a city so rich to have such a dismal quality of life.

> a city so rich Crime goes up when income gaps get bigger. https://financesonline.com/how-income-inequality-affects-cri...

There are many, many cities with much lower crime and much higher Gini coefficients than SF. Suggesting the crime problem we're discussing is the cause of income inequality is almost deliberately misleading.

Re: Nearly Half of San Franciscans Have Been Victims of Theft, New Poll Says

#523

Post by BigRedDog1669 »

jshzglr wrote: post #495
krapp wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a reason we have a history of unwarranted respect for cops and military members. It's not because they always deserve it, but because you want them to feel like they do. In other words, either we show them obsequience and respect they don't deserve, or else they'll "act accordingly" and just start robbing and killing people en masse. That's no better than the mafia. Actually it's worse than the mafia becaus…

Nowhere in my comment was there anything about tolerating mafia-like behavior. It's really not complicated. Of course cops should be reprimanded for bad behavior, as they are.

Reprimand means an 'official rebuke'. Police are not reprimanded except for the most egregious cases. People complain, but they aren't held accountable.

Re: Nearly Half of San Franciscans Have Been Victims of Theft, New Poll Says

#524

Post by the_only_law »

jshzglr wrote: post #495
krapp wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a reason we have a history of unwarranted respect for cops and military members. It's not because they always deserve it, but because you want them to feel like they do. In other words, either we show them obsequience and respect they don't deserve, or else they'll "act accordingly" and just start robbing and killing people en masse. That's no better than the mafia. Actually it's worse than the mafia becaus…

Nowhere in my comment was there anything about tolerating mafia-like behavior. It's really not complicated. Of course cops should be reprimanded for bad behavior, as they are.

> Of course cops should be reprimanded for bad behavior, as they are.

Are you delusional? This has been a very hot issue for over a year now.

Re: Nearly Half of San Franciscans Have Been Victims of Theft, New Poll Says

#525

Post by [deleted] »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #275
x86x87 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law enforcement is useless if they pick and choose which laws to enforce. Laws themselves are pointless if they are not enforced (or even worse: selectively enforced)

I'm guessing that if a rich, white or Asian tech worker decided to loot a Walgreens, they would get the book thrown at them. Look at the small business owners in New York who get arrested and charged with everything possible by the DA's office for defending themselves (until public pressure forces them to back down). That's where we are. This is what the people voted for, though.

[deleted]

Re: Nearly Half of San Franciscans Have Been Victims of Theft, New Poll Says

#527

Post by thatguy0900 »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #520
thatguy0900 wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So stopping bike thefts is harrasing minorities now, or are you on a tangent Noone was talking about? The conversation was about why cops in these areas don't bother investigating crimes and mugging, I would hope you don't think enforcing those laws is racist. If it is, I guess we should just be mad max or something. I agree cops in this country need serious reform, but that's not what this discussion is about.

As a cyclist myself, one of the reasons I don't support laws about cycle helmets is that police regularly use them (as they do many other laws) to harass people on the basis of race, wealth or other biases via inconsistent enforcement. And that's a law, that in theory, I might be convinced had some merit. Not some War on Drugs BS. How can you exist in the year 2022, have strong opinions on law and order on the intern…

I feel like we're not reading the same thread here. Cops going after minorities is a bad thing. But handcuffing the cops so badly that they have no interest in going after organized serial theft rings because they know that no charges will stick is just as much of a problem in the other direction. Unless you think it's fine to live in a place with 0 personal property protection there's obviously a middle ground that should be met here. But whatever, I don't live there, and would move if my local police got that disfunctional, so I'm happy for the people who enjoy living there. May your bikes stay in your possession for at least a year or two, I guess.

Re: Nearly Half of San Franciscans Have Been Victims of Theft, New Poll Says

#528

Post by jcranmer »

cr4nberry wrote: post #492
jcranmer wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has the world's highest incarceration rate (and by some distance--it's about 10% higher than the second highest rate, El Salvador, and 300% higher than the highest rate among the EU countries), and Japan is around the 20th lowest. This strongly suggests that incarceral policies are not the most effective solution to reducing crime.

> This strongly suggests that incarceral policies are not the most effective solution to reducing crime. No it doesn't, because you've only changed one variable, and there's a lot more that differentiates the US from those countries other than prisons

Effect size is a thing. The US incarceration rate is >3× comparable countries. If the effect size of incarceration rate were similar to (or larger than!) other causes, the US would have to be consistently 3× comparables in other social statistics, like GDP per capita, inequality, or diversity, to achieve the same crime rate. But it's not, which means that the other factors must have greater impact on the crime rate than incarceration rate. Ergo, locking people up is not the most effective solution--there has to be something more effective out there.

Re: Nearly Half of San Franciscans Have Been Victims of Theft, New Poll Says

#529

Post by Spooky23 »

jacobolus wrote: post #383
Spooky23 wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC: > “Bragg said the office will stop prosecuting people for theft of services, trespassing (unless it accompanies a stalking charge), aggravated unlicensed operation, routine traffic violations not accompanied by felony charges, obstructing governmental administration, resisting arrest, and prostitution.“ https://gothamist.com/news/manhattan-da-bragg-tells-staff-st... The Manhattan DA subsequently claimed to roll…

> openly evading Subway fares Nobody has ever cared about this (nor should they, IMO; disclaimer: I have never lived in NYC). Occasionally journalists go to NYC to interview random residents about fare evasion, and the main response is a shrug. Frankly, we’d all be generally better off with free public transit. Governments end up paying most of the bill anyway, and increasing transit use would be a big benefit to tho…

I don’t disagree with you, but the fact is the public transit isn’t free in NYC.

Is fare evasion a thing? Sure. But when prosecutorial discretion decides that public transit is going to be de facto free, that’s a governance failure that undermines confidence in government.

If the DA wanted to be the public face of a movement to transform public transit by eliminating fares, that’s one thing. Saying “we’re not interested in prosecuting theft of services”, that’s not the same.

Re: Nearly Half of San Franciscans Have Been Victims of Theft, New Poll Says

#530

Post by Spooky23 »

kalkin wrote: post #389
Spooky23 wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC: > “Bragg said the office will stop prosecuting people for theft of services, trespassing (unless it accompanies a stalking charge), aggravated unlicensed operation, routine traffic violations not accompanied by felony charges, obstructing governmental administration, resisting arrest, and prostitution.“ https://gothamist.com/news/manhattan-da-bragg-tells-staff-st... The Manhattan DA subsequently claimed to roll…

I don't see muggings, burglaries, or car break-ins in that quote. Not that you were asserting otherwise but it doesn't seem like support for disinterest in theft being a prosecutor choice rather than a cop choice.

That’s a different city (where I live) In my city, the city administration has instructed police not to pursue certain offenses. The DA in my county has to please suburban voters as well, so he projects a little tougher.

Typically, it’s difficult to prosecute things like muggings or car theft.

So using lesser acts that are easily demonstrated is a more scalable process. If you’re in my garage, charging you with trespass and petit larceny will get plead out as trespass. If you have to go to trial for the theft, you need to establish that the property was there, etc. That means witnesses, testimony, etc.

These issues are nuanced. I don’t want to see my neighbors abused by out of control police. But letting criminals run wild isn as bad as letting police run around without accountability. Conservative politicians used to bleat about “the rule of law”. Law requires justice, and that means police and prosecutors must be held to a high standard of conduct and competence.

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