Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

engadget.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

521–530 of 566 posts

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#521

Post by pdimitar »

Bakary wrote: post #56
pdimitar wrote: post #33

Honestly, as a non-American this scares me. I am absolutely not at all important and a fairly mediocre programmer as well, I don't store compromising data about anyone, never stole code or company data in my life (and never will), etc., you get it. A normal law-abiding citizen. I still don't want to get my phone taken on an US airport and returned an hour later with God knows how many viruses that even Apple wouldn't…

The elephant in the room in this case is that at a most basic level a State is an entity that maintains a (near) monopoly of violence in a given area. Being a normal law-abiding citizen just means that you are currently functioning in an area where the State's goals somewhat coincide with you living with some degree of freedom and comfort. Or at least they have no current incentive to mess with your life. But the who…

> When you are disturbed by having your phone searched, what is happening is that the balance has shifted a bit against your favor

Oh yeah, I am painfully aware of the power imbalance and that we're left alone simply because the powers that be don't have the resources to pick bones with each and every one of us. No other reason. If these things can get automated -- robot/AI security personnel -- then I am sure they'll start searching everyone's devices because it'll be practical and quick for them.

As mentioned above, I am a fairly average citizen and like 99% of people I just want to go about my business without being disturbed. I am social, easy to put a smile on my face, and fairly casual in my demeanor. I discovered this works really well with figures of authority -- they automatically write you off as harmless and leave you alone.

Still, I dread the thought of having to divulge that I have a collection of erotic pictures and even some copyrighted material in my photo gallery (e.g. small snippets from movies). If somebody wishes me harm they can absolutely do it -- sadly.

And that's the part that's not OK. The rulers want us always guilty of something by default. Sigh.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#522

Post by notch656a »

anon291 wrote: post #510
refurb wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is false. A friend came back to the US after 3 years. A time period you typically lose your green card. However friend was smart to ask a lawyer and the lawyer said “agree to nothing, sign nothing, only a judge can take your green card”. So she did just that. Put up with about an hour of shit. “No, im not signing anything”, “No, I don’t agree that I’m no longer a permanent resident of the US”. Was eventually let…

Yeah my grandmother lost her green card (old lady) and as long as you're nice and tell them the law... They will eventually follow it. My fellow Americans are very afraid of their own government for some reason. The us government is filled with a bunch of cowards.

>They will eventually follow it

Or they won't. And they'll lie to a judge, and they'll lie to a doctor, and they'll lie to the assistant US attorney. They'll create an insane and false chain of probable cause to accuse you of having drugs up your ass. You'll be taken (while cuffed, and chained to a van) to MULTIPLE hospitals against your will and be seen without your permission (without an arrest, without a warrant, and without a court order, and without any psych hold), each of which sends you a multi-thousand dollar bill. You'll wonder when the lawsuit will end up getting served for the medical bills for a medical condition you never had that the agents made up. You will complain to the state medical/nursing board, and they'll tell you nurses can search and perform 'care' on you without a warrant, probable cause, any emergency, consent, an arrest, nor a court order -- and DHS will exploit this loophole to violate what few 4th amendment rights you do have at the border. The DHS agents will smile inside knowing they can weaponize the high cost of fake medical complains while under your detention to rack up debt in your name.

Later you contact an attorney, and find out the agents have qualified immunity, that suing is a financial black hole that you probably cannot afford, and that your best chance is to be some incredibly sympathetic mother-teresa kind of character that are one of the one per 10,000 or whatever ACLU takes up for a cause.

These are not theoretical. This is what they've done to me, and more.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#523

Post by vkou »

autoexec wrote: post #513
vkou wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>ever put such a critical item as banking app on their phone? Because my PC isn't meaningfully more secure. Because in the overwhelming majority of situations, if that security is compromised, my bank will eventually cough up my money. Also because I also expect neither Google, Apple, my carrier, nor the dab gum gubment is likely to rob me by... * checks notes * Compromising the banking app on my phone. Or my PC. Or…

> Compromising the banking app on my phone. Or my PC. Or my router. Or any of the other non-100% secure devices and processes I use to get through my life. There's basic security precautions, and there's living in fear and paranoia, brought on by a misunderstanding of the threats you are facing. If you think the risks to your privacy and security are remotely equivalent with a PC and a cell phone I'd argue that you'r…

They are not equivalent, just like driving a car and taking the bus are not equivalent risks.

And yet, I still drive. I don't even wear a racing helmet, and a five-point seat belt while doing it!

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#524

Post by notch656a »

anon291 wrote: post #509
throwoutway wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me know how successful you are crossing the border and getting home when you tell CBP to “pound sand”. They’ll just deny you entry and you’re left with very little recourse. Effectively they are the judge and jury and you’re stuck in the waiting area if you’re lucky, a holding cell if you’re not If you think you’re immune just because you’re a US citizen, you’re not.

I'm a brown man and I regularly tell cbp to pound sand. Once they tried to hold me up because my wife had two drivers licenses. We were just married and she had an old invalidated license with her old name. I explained the situation and he thought it was suspicious so I asked him if he was suspicious because I was brown really loudly and he then let us through. I don't understand all these people who cow down to ever…

No post body was provided.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#525

Post by autoexec »

vkou wrote: post #523
autoexec wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Compromising the banking app on my phone. Or my PC. Or my router. Or any of the other non-100% secure devices and processes I use to get through my life. There's basic security precautions, and there's living in fear and paranoia, brought on by a misunderstanding of the threats you are facing. If you think the risks to your privacy and security are remotely equivalent with a PC and a cell phone I'd argue that you'r…

They are not equivalent, just like driving a car and taking the bus are not equivalent risks. And yet, I still drive. I don't even wear a racing helmet, and a five-point seat belt while doing it!

These days, I don't think it's realistic to tell people not to drive. There will always be some risk involved, but you can give folks the tools and the information they need to help protect what's important to them most of the time.

Sometimes that might even include advice on helmets and five-point seat belts, but even without them we should be careful not to mislead people into thinking that a well maintained Volvo XC90 on their desk would be no safer than the 1970s Ford Pinto in their pocket.

Some things are just broken by design and shouldn't be trusted with anything you really care about, while other things can be reasonably safe if you're careful and pay attention.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#526

Post by refurb »

browningstreet wrote: post #207

On my last trip back from Europe in June, when I re-entered the US, US Customs & Border Control didn't ask for my passport. No one did. They did wave a webcam connected to a computer in front of my face, and then a moment later, called out my name and said I could enter. Same with everyone coming through the international border area. I think that's just as weird a development and worthy of "WTH?" as this topic.

That surprised me as well, but even freakier, my sister flew into the US with her 3 year old who looks nothing like her passport photo since it was taken when she was 6 months old.

Held the kid up to the camera and boom - full name and DOB pops up.

Pretty clear the facial recognition tech works well, but I also wonder if there is backend matching with passenger lists as well.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#527

Post by dredmorbius »

Bakary wrote: post #56
pdimitar wrote: post #33

Honestly, as a non-American this scares me. I am absolutely not at all important and a fairly mediocre programmer as well, I don't store compromising data about anyone, never stole code or company data in my life (and never will), etc., you get it. A normal law-abiding citizen. I still don't want to get my phone taken on an US airport and returned an hour later with God knows how many viruses that even Apple wouldn't…

The elephant in the room in this case is that at a most basic level a State is an entity that maintains a (near) monopoly of violence in a given area. Being a normal law-abiding citizen just means that you are currently functioning in an area where the State's goals somewhat coincide with you living with some degree of freedom and comfort. Or at least they have no current incentive to mess with your life. But the who…

The state's monopoly, qua Max Weber, is on the legitimate use of violence. That is, the right and legitimacy of that right, is restricted to the state.

Absent this, one of three conditions exist;

1. There is no monopoly. In which case violence is widespread, and there is no state.

2. There is no legitimacy. In which case violence is capricious. This is your condition of tyranny (unaccountable power).

3. Some non-state power or agent assumes the monopoly on legitimate violence. In which case it becomes, by definition the State.

The state's claim is to legitimacy. A capricious exercise would be an abrogation of legitimacy

Weber, Max (1978). Roth, Guenther; Wittich, Claus (eds.). Economy and Society. Berkeley: U. California P. p. 54.

https://archive.org/details/economysociety00webe/page/54/mod...>

There's an excellent explanation of the common misunderstanding in this episode of the Talking Politics podcast: https://play.acast.com/s/history-of-ideas/weberonleadership>

The misleading and abbreviated form that's frequently found online seems to have originated with Rothbard in the 1960s, and was further popularised by Nozick in the 1970s. It's now falsely accepted as a truth when in fact it is a gross misrepresentation and obscures the core principles Weber advanced.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#528

Post by formerly_proven »

autoexec wrote: post #512
jameshart wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While US justice certainly can be capricious and arbitrary, it is not entirely a random lottery whose eye it falls upon. And while those who believe in the centrality of personal responsibility and try to tell you that anyone who comes into contact with the police must have done something to deserve it are clearly deluded, there are things you can do in your life, or elements of your personal background and lifestyle…

> there are things you can do in your life, or elements of your personal background and lifestyle that, though you never really opted into them, you may benefit from (one might call them 'privileges'), which will reduce the chances that you personally will run into trouble with the law quite considerably. They are always watching. Always collecting your data and trolling through it looking for things to use against y…

> You can always make choices that will make your situation worse, but no matter what you do or don't do there's really no telling what might cause you harm.

People resist this notion because psychologically, on a basic level, we wanna feel safe at home. In Maslow's ordered sets of needs, the need to feel safe at your resting spot comes right after "not being beaten", "not freezing" and "not starving". The idea that it's entirely unknowable to you what (completely innocent and legal) things you might have done ten years ago turn you into a "PoI" today is - obviously - quite scary and contrary to that.

Post reply on HN