Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems • Hacker News Board

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#521

Post by t3pfaff » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 1:29 AM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #311

doix wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in the semiconductor industry, and at least in our niche of the semiconductor industry, FAEs were some of the worst paid people, a long with production test for some reason. FAEs were seen as the lowest level support who were a stop-gap for our application engineers (non-field). If a big customer had a problem, we would send an AE out to show that we were taking it seriously. No idea if it's the same in othe…

>A friend interviewed for a hardware position at Apple and the salary was definitely SWE levels of high. Which probably explains why Apple is the only, or one of the rare few, consumer electronics companies with products most people actually want to buy and love to own. People keep pointing out how shitty products form Apple's competitors are (Samsung, Dell, etc.), but when you look how little they pay for talent in…

You clearly have never seen Louis Rossman's critiques of Apple's repeatedly poor hardware designs.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#522

Post by midoridensha » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 2:07 AM UTC

BlackSwanManZ wrote: post #493

midoridensha wrote: post #463

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>Imagine if you make airplane engines for GE as an ME, and you want a higher salary, who else are you going to go to? There's barely any companies in the country that have the capacity to make airplane engines, so there's less competition for your labor. Sure, but what happens when you decide you're sick of a poor salary, and you learn Python and CS in your spare time and interview for Google and then quit your airpl…

Most don't even know that they can leetcode themselves to a way higher salary. And if you got a PhD in something, it's very hard on your ego to leave it behind. Plus the corporate propaganda on taking a paycut to do "cool things" works very well. Look at how many smart people work at SpaceX

Yeah, so basically these places are propped up by tons of people willing to sacrifice their time and lives for some corporate execs to get rich. I'm not really sure what can be done about that, except to opt out for myself and choose a career for myself that's a better balance of compensation, working hours, etc.

If people are going to let their ego put them in a position to be taken advantage of, isn't that basically their own fault?

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

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Post by bumby » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 2:09 AM UTC

jbay808 wrote: post #510

bumby wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That leads to a follow up. Is the goal to have a home in one of those cities or is the goal to have a home? The first may require working in software while the latter could foreseeably mean you could be an EE elsewhere.

Everyone chooses their own goals and priorities of course. Where in Canada would you recommend for a young EE?

I don’t know Canada unfortunately. But maybe Windsor? EEs working as control engineers across the river in automotive while I was there could easily pull surgeon-level salaries in an area that has a cost of living a fraction below SV

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

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Post by BenjiWiebe » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 5:09 AM UTC

GeorgeTirebiter wrote: post #508

atune wrote: post #175

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You learn at least Altium, PADS, Eagle and some open alternatives. You learn the specific quirks of all those software. You hate every hour you have to fight with PADS' decades-old bugs and "features". In addition to LT Spice you probably learn a more specialized simulation software. Who knows, maybe you have to design power elecronics. Maybe antennas. Maybe both. Maybe in the same system. Maybe you are specialized i…

Yes, this seems to be such a tiny domain. If you know Maxwell's equations, you know all you need to know about EMI, pcb layout, RF, and more. If you know how to do something other than 'Datasheet Engineering' -- you know how to plan for part substitutions. I'm trying to make the point that EE is a Fixed Domain, where one only needs to know a very small number of things to be an 'expert' in said domain. This is not th…

I feel Maxwell's equations are to EE what Boolean logic is to CS. Yes it's what it's all based on, but it's a tremendous oversimplification.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

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Post by Valakas_ » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 6:39 AM UTC

dbingham wrote: post #319

christophilus wrote: post #296

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I don’t understand how the market dynamics work here. As a software engineer, I feel like the market is flooded with workers, and that it is an easy job. I have no idea how we’ve managed to sustain these salaries for so long. At some point, I keep expecting a correction in salaries simply due to supply / demand. I also keep thinking, surely other industries will start paying more and treating folks better, so they ca…

Two things - I don't think it's as easy as you think it is. If you're good at it, it can feel comparatively easy, because when you're good at it and you enjoy it - it's fun . It's flow. You get lost in it and don't realize that you were just working flat out for 12 hours. But there are lots of things that are flow that are not easy. I've been coding since I was 12, I have flow days where it's just an absolute pleasur…

I can take an online course and start a job in SE in 6 months. Good luck doing that for another engineering field.

Cmon... it is definitely easier. It's easier to start, it's easier to develop. With many other engineering courses you need a HUGE base of knowledge to even start being useful. With SE you can start being useful almost from the get go in comparison.

Not saying it's not hard to master, because i believe it is. But comparatively, it is definitely easier. But tbh who cares? I've been doing mechanical engineering for years, and it's hard as hell, and what do I get from that difficulty? A pat on the back to feel good about how smart i am? Getting home tired because my brain is fried of thinking about complex stuff? At this point i'd rather have gone the easy way and take SE. We only have one life. Easy = Good.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

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Post by frognumber » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 8:13 AM UTC

midoridensha wrote: post #460

frognumber wrote: post #363

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I don't think that's at all right. EE is hard. Bad EEs are unemployable. There's no demand. EE is also beautiful and absolutely fascinating. You get to: - Do beautiful math - Build things and get your hands dirty - Do super-creative design ... and so on. It's just fun! I have a Ph.D in electronic engineering from a top school, and I don't regret one minute of the program. I graduated during a downturn, and finding a…

I also wonder how much is due to location. EEs in the US only seem to get hired in certain industries these days, depending on what it is (i.e., writing HDL vs. electronic/PCB design and other things). Much of it just seems to be military now. So if you stay in EE, that means the jobs are only in certain locations, which might not be all that attractive to you, compared to where many software jobs are.

It's mostly due to old, inflexible, stodgy companies. Analog Device, Texas Instruments, Intel, etc. have been around forever, and haven't updated the worst parts of their employment practices and corporate cultures since the eighties. Military is even worse, but it's not just military.

Right now, I work in a company where I have work-life integration. I enjoy being at work. It's a pleasant place to be. I enjoy working from home, and balancing work with family. I enjoy my vacations. None of these are hard or expensive. I'd never get that designing integrated circuits or in any other sort of high-performance EE work.

Why can't I ask for a pleasant office, with a nice window looking at something green, flexible (not short) working hours, flexible vacation (I do better with fewer / longer trips), comfortable clothing, and similar in the EE world?

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

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Post by boppo1 » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 1:02 PM UTC

lamontcg wrote: post #194

boppo1 wrote: post #88

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>It makes no sense. Why is web software so easy to make money in? Why do we value hard engineering so little? Interest rate intervention (making them lower than equilibrium) changed the DCF valuation that is the fundamental way of evaluating business (i.e. people working together on large endeavors) to one where promising massive returns in the future(20+ years) made low returns in the near term (x now had to adjust…

Same thing could be said in 2007. All of the goldbug quantity-theory-of-money folks were screaming about Greenspan holding rates artifically low for so long -- both before the tech bubble in 2001 and up until they started to delicately raise rates after 2003. Once the real crash starts to unfold it may get bad for awhile, but once the Billionaires start getting worried about it they'll hit the monetary gas pedal agai…

Greenspan is interesting to me because although he seems to have started this whole low-interest paradigm, he was once an ardent supporter of a gold standard in 1967. It's a short paper, worth looking up.

So I wonder, how did he go from "fiat schemes exist only as a means for welfare statists to infringe on property rights" to being in charge of interest rate intervention?

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

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Post by bumby » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 9:06 PM UTC

infinite8s wrote: post #518

bumby wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an interesting take. I wonder how much the last 20 years of relatively cheap capital contributed to this. A lot of VC money seems to already have dried up as interest rates start to rise.

If you look at the explosion in salaries it's mostly been the last decade, which is coincidentally the decade of near 0 interest rates and capital chasing even more tenuous returns (ie the influx of money into VC funds which went into startups)

In theory, shouldn’t the cheap capital also caused explosion in salaries outside of tech? That didn’t seem to happen over the same time horizon

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

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Post by bumby » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 9:08 PM UTC

Gravyness wrote: post #495

bumby wrote: post #350

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This confuses the point with “doing work you may not want to do”. I’m saying there are multiple dimensions of finding fulfillment, with money only being a single dimension. The idea that anything outside that single dimension would be considered nothing but charity is telling.

Every single company I joined that promised a stress-free environment has outright lied to me to the point that I will find it suspicions if HR mentions how happy and balanced the work is. It is a huge deal for me but HR will never be honest about it to me because if they did they wouldn't hire much and would be replaced by someone who says "Working here is a fun challenge where you will be tested for your vast knowl…

Believing HR is like asking a barber if you need a haircut. You already know what the answer will be. I think it’s easier to get an accurate answer by asking tangentially related questions in the interview.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

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Post by sacrosancty » Fri, Jul 22, 2022, 12:39 AM UTC

bumby wrote: post #344

sacrosancty wrote: post #235

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The trouble with doing a low-pay career for the passion is that it's usually low pay because there are a million other people willing to do the same thing, so it actually does become a hustle.

I hear you, but I don’t think this is a fair assessment because EE isn’t a “low pay job” by almost any objective measure. I get that it doesn’t pay SWE money in many cases, but it comes across as somewhat out of touch, like saying “the problem with a Tesla is it’s a low end car” because you’re comparing it to a Maserati

You have to have some sort of scope for comparison. Here we're talking about engineeringy careers that the same person might want to do. So cleaner and sports star aren't relevant even if their pay is much lower or higher.