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Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

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Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#521

Post by pragmatic »

thaeli wrote: post #317
toomuchtodo wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diplomacy is the art of saying “good dog” until you make it to the rock. Ford is learning what Tesla knew from the start: dealership interests aren’t aligned with EV manufacturers. There’s very little service revenue, and dealers are incentivized to add “market adjustments” to vehicles (which Ford dealers have been doing) creating a poor customer experience. Ford has existing dealerships and is going to have a heck o…

Is there really that much service revenue for modern ICE cars that isn't stuff BEV cars need too? Modern powertrains are pretty bulletproof, 10k oil changes and 30k air filters will get you to 100k miles. "Tune ups" aren't really a thing anymore either, especially in the first 100k. Brakes? Maybe you're cutting out one or two pad slaps in that 100k. Oil changes? Yeah, you've eliminated those, the lowest margin servic…

That’s true if your vehicle came from Japan or South Korea.

US big 3 or German cars are a maintenance nightmare.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#522

Post by jsymolon »

stutsmansoft wrote: post #502
spikels wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ford reorganized back in March so that their EV business (Model e) is separate from the legacy ICE business (Ford Blue). There was speculation at the time that this was in part free itself of the dealership sales model. The dealers would keep the dying ICE business while the fast growing EV business would start with clean slate. Farley was quoted describing the EV sales model as: > "It's going to be much more efficie…

The dealers brought it on themselves...many of them actively disincentivize EV purchases when you try to buy one. Why? They want to protect that recurring service bay revenue. Oil changes, plugs, belts, etc.

The ICE is one of the minor items; still needs oil and fluids but are mostly maintenance free for a long while.

All of the other components still need maintenance. Tires, alignment, suspension etc.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#523

Post by adamqureshi »

norman784 wrote: post #433
spikels wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ford reorganized back in March so that their EV business (Model e) is separate from the legacy ICE business (Ford Blue). There was speculation at the time that this was in part free itself of the dealership sales model. The dealers would keep the dying ICE business while the fast growing EV business would start with clean slate. Farley was quoted describing the EV sales model as: > "It's going to be much more efficie…

Excuse my ignorance, but how I understand is that ICE can't be sold directly to the customers, so that's why dealerships exists (?), so my question is, are EV not regulated or treated differently than ICE?

Tesla also points out that its prices are fixed, and its salespeople are paid primarily on salary, not commission. “Customers will never be rushed into a purchase, haggle over the price of the car, wonder if they could get a better deal across town, or puzzle over confusing add-on products, like GAP insurance or rust-proofing.”

Back in the 1930s, the car companies established this system so that they could worry about making cars, and the franchises could worry about selling and repairing them.

Early on, though, the franchisees lobbied their state governments for protection. They feared, among other things, that the giant car companies could open up their own stores across the street, cut prices, and crush the franchise like a bug.

To prevent that kind of abuse, all 50 states passed “dealer franchise laws.” They protected the dealerships in various ways—including barring any car maker from selling directly to consumers.

Those laws didn’t foresee the modern era. What they meant, of course, is that “no car company that has franchises can sell directly to consumers.”

They weren’t even thinking about companies that don’t have franchises, because there weren’t any at the time.

Over the years, Tesla’s legal team has gone from one state legislature to another, pointing out how that rule has become outdated, and suggesting that it get changed. In some cases, they succeeded.

In others, though, Tesla is running into a tougher obstacle.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#524

Post by ddingus »

sammalloy wrote: post #225
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Toyota and Honda don’t need much service, and I don’t see how they are money makers for the dealer Well first off, people like buy that marketing stuff hook line and sinker, so they make more on the sale. Second, pretty much any vehicle that rolls on earths surface is going to need stuff serviced in proportion to how close it is to the ground. For cars this means the dealer can make plenty of money selling brake pa…

The thing about Toyota and Honda though is they create loyal customers who keep coming back. My buddy has a Toyota with 250k miles on it. And that’s considered normal wear and tear. Good luck trying to get a Ford past 120k. Ever had to deal with a Ford dealership? It’s like visiting hell for a day.

Well, my 2000 Expedition went 390k miles.

Service was:

Two alternators, installed by me.

The usual brakes and tires, half installed by me.

Couple of gas caps. (Wtf?)

Two sets of the bes plugs money can buy because that engine was the one with crazy thin threaded areas where the plugs go. Had the dealer techs do those. And I went to a rural dealer, had a great experience.

Water pump, installed by local shop.

I would still be driving that rig, but it had an internal engine component failure that costs more than the thing was worth, so I sold it to a family here for a couple hundred bucks. Husband does his own work, has small shop, can profit on the vehicle.

Was a great vehicle. I got it from a shady dealer who I out dealt for a purchase 3 percent over invoice, and zero back end contract adders. (Took 6 hours, but literally saved me just south of 15k)

I agree with you, all that said. The dealers near me are the worst! That is by far the more common experience.

I have family in the rural part of the State and the dealer there is awesome! Would recommend.

My Ford driving experiences do not agree with you. But, that is all our own experiences too.

One of my favorite Fords was an old 1980 Futura. Box car, 4 cylinder, 4 speed manual trans. That thing got crazy good mileage and was fun to drive. Wonderfully old school black with plaid interior, that old AM radio with center dash speaker, lol. I went 100k in that car. Got it for a song too. Ugly.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#525

Post by sillyquiet »

stutsmansoft wrote: post #502
spikels wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ford reorganized back in March so that their EV business (Model e) is separate from the legacy ICE business (Ford Blue). There was speculation at the time that this was in part free itself of the dealership sales model. The dealers would keep the dying ICE business while the fast growing EV business would start with clean slate. Farley was quoted describing the EV sales model as: > "It's going to be much more efficie…

The dealers brought it on themselves...many of them actively disincentivize EV purchases when you try to buy one. Why? They want to protect that recurring service bay revenue. Oil changes, plugs, belts, etc.

I am not saying this isn't true, but EV's have a set of maintenance requirements too - there are still a lot of mechanical parts - tires, suspensions, doors, etc. Not to mention electronic maintenance but I guess dealerships would have to re-train, re-certify, and re-tool technicians for that

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#526

Post by xdennis »

Alupis wrote: post #155
raz32dust wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would a fixed, online price end up being higher on average than what someone paid after haggling at a dealership. If anything, it should be lower because of (1) Reduced overhead, and (2) It is more closer to a free-market due to more transparency. Yes, there might be outliers where an extremely good haggler paid less, but that would be outweighed by a novice who paid way more, and the average has to be higher bec…

Why would Ford (or any manufacturer) offer cars on their website for cheaper than MSRP? What is their incentive? MSRP is a suggested retail price, which is based off the manufacturer's costs + what they believe is a reasonable margin for their vendor (dealership in this case). Ford cutting out the middle man means they can offer cars at the same exact price (MSRP in this case), but not have all the expenses dealershi…

Any intermediary is only going to add more to the price, not less. If an intermediary made prices cheaper for their customers than upstream, then they wouldn't be in business.

The incentive is clearly competition from other manufacturers. In a world of dealerships, competition is murky because you can't really know the final price of a car unless you play the haggle game with every dealership. But if every manufacturer had all the final prices online, you can easily evaluate what is the better deal.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#527

Post by giarc »

paxys wrote: post #39

A lot has been said about the dealership model in the last few years, and the almost universal consensus is that it is an unnecessary and predatory industry and all auto makers should just sell cars directly like Tesla does. That being said, is there any counterpoint to this view? Are there any benefits that dealerships offer today over direct sales? What would we lose if we got rid of every dealership? If there is t…

>Are there any benefits that dealerships offer today over direct sales?

Competition. In a decent sized city you will get multiple dealers for the big names (Toyota, GM, Ford etc) and they will compete against each other. Because of this, you won't pay over MSRP, winter tires at cost, discounted warranties, free oil changes for life and they generally try really hard to keep your business through good customer service.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#528

Post by xdennis »

Alupis wrote: post #179
Someone1234 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I see "No Haggle, Fixed-Price, Online Only", I think "Rip Off", and I can't be the only one. Since I'll know a fair price of the vehicle before I run across that, I can determine if it is a "ripe off" or a fair market price, with far less hassle/wasted time. I'd always buy from a no haggle dealership if the price was competitive (and my last vehicle purchase was exactly that, it was +-$1K from normal price bas…

The problem arises when there is no other reference price to compare to. By only offering 1st party sales, and only on their website - Ford sets the reference price. So there will be no comparisons available... and gradually cars will get more expensive because they can and people will pay it.

You keep making the same comment where you pretend you don't know that Ford isn't the only car manufacturer so you can justify the existence of dealerships.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#529

Post by wenc »

ThunderSizzle wrote: post #465
wenc wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own a fairly reliable ICE car from 2009 with ~100k miles, and I've had to get servicing for belts, water pump, brake pads, sway bars, oil changes, etc. I estimate I spent about $5k over the life the car on servicing. That's excluding tires, wiper blades and air filter changes. Owners of less reliable ICE cars probably spend more.

It doesn't sound that reliable if you've had to replace that much already with just 100k miles. I have two vehicles over 100k, one closing in on 200k soon, and my maintenance on both is less than 5k. Of course, the part no one talks about: 1. How will you do a family vacation beyond the EV range? 2. Who pays to replace the ~$15k battery and when?

I think it’s worth noting that mileage doesn’t necessarily correspond to maintenance expenses. It’s only a rough rule of thumb.

People like to talk about mileage because it’s an easy-to-measure stand in for the age of a car based on its usage. But over time they forget that like in humans, there’s a lot of variation at the same age.

There’s other factors like road conditions, cost of parts, cost of labor in different parts of the country, unexpected events like fender benders, etc. that the mileage number doesn’t capture.

The same 100k mile car driven in a leafy suburb where not much goes on is going to be different from a car with the same mileage driven under harsher conditions.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#530

Post by _1 »

sillyquiet wrote: post #525
stutsmansoft wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dealers brought it on themselves...many of them actively disincentivize EV purchases when you try to buy one. Why? They want to protect that recurring service bay revenue. Oil changes, plugs, belts, etc.

I am not saying this isn't true, but EV's have a set of maintenance requirements too - there are still a lot of mechanical parts - tires, suspensions, doors, etc. Not to mention electronic maintenance but I guess dealerships would have to re-train, re-certify, and re-tool technicians for that

Not nearly on the same scale. I've had a Tesla Model 3 for over three years and 25k miles and have had no maintenance done.
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