Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#521

Post by BigHatLogan » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:16 PM UTC

fartcannon wrote: post #412

EricE wrote: post #359

Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I can say as someone who now works full time remote while also geographically isolated, it's not all a bed of roses. I do miss the serendipitous hallway conversations - some of the best directions in my career came from those spontaneous and unplanned in person interactions. I'm towa…

A lot of tech savvy younger folks are perfectly capable of making relationships entirely online. I'm not even young, and I've done it myself. 25 years ago, I made several friends on Yahoo Chat! who I have never seen in real life but speak with regularly. Many more over the years via builtin boards. These days discord exists and it's a primary social source for a number of kids. These kids could enter a fully WFH work…

Any advice for how to do this? E.g. do people join Discords that they're interested in and then start chatting (Where do they even find them?)?

I'm in my 30s now, and much of this is unfamiliar to me, but I'm interested in learning more about it. My social network has definitely shrunk significantly these past two years.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#522

Post by kbelder » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:17 PM UTC

EricE wrote: post #391

dleslie wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> whiteboards Digital whiteboards are trivial to share, recover, modify and maintain. They're light-years beyond the limited physical variety. My team leans heavily on Miro, for instance. > Lunch Lunch time is a break. Not everyone wants to spend their break with their coworkers; but even for those that do, nothing is preventing you from having a conference call or video call over lunch. > Body language Not everyone…

>Not everyone understands or can engage in body language. Well you sure as hell aren't going to get better at it by throwing up your hands and declaring it just isn't for you. I'm naturally introverted, but when I say that to co-workers they don't believe it - because over the years I have learned to adapt. I'm very extroverted at work - because it's necessary. Yup, I pay a price - it's exhausting and I need time to…

I agree. I wrote a rant and deleted it, because I don't want to post inflammatory content here.

But I'll say that I had social anxiety, and that sometimes it can be overcome (certainly not always). But it will never be overcome without stress, often painful stress; and the cruel harsh world is actually a very good training ground to force you to improve. I'm glad my shortcomings weren't coddled; I'm glad they were viewed as something I'd have to either fix or cope with.

There are degrees of anxiety and other mental/emotional problems. Many are not going to be fixed, some require medication, some are just too severe. But it's a gradient, and some can get better with exposure, and removing that exposure can be detrimental (even though that exposure is unpleasant).

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#523

Post by ensan » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:20 PM UTC

turtledove wrote: post #58

chadash wrote: post #53

People want to have their cake and eat it too. Silicon Valley companies pay very well because cost of living is very high in the area and they _need_ to pay well to attract talent in that area. If remote work becomes the norm, pay will start to even out across the country. If you live in a place that didn't pay well before, you'll be better off, but if you live in a high cost of work area, you'll probably be worse of…

They pay well because demand for engineers is high. Cost of living is high because engineers have bought all the stock in the area. You've got the order backwards.

"They pay well because demand for engineers is high"

Do they pay their teams in Canada, India, China, etc. as much as SV? No.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#524

Post by lampshades » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:20 PM UTC

skeeter2020 wrote: post #421

lampshades wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is me. I find it much easier to converse online. I also am content staying in my house for years on end (as COVID has shown) and getting my social interaction from text on a computer screen. The internet has been my main source of social contact since I was 12 (at which point I just stopped going outside and spent all my time building websites), so I guess I've adapted to this way of living.

> so I guess I've adapted to this way of living. Humans are almost infinitely adaptable, but if the vast majority of the world doesn't adopt a lifestyle similar to yours I fear you're really going to miss out a big part of what "living" includes. One large component: diversity, both in content and medium. There's also the real and serious worry about "not going outside". this is terrible for your health and also has…

I mean, I was being a little hyperbolic when I said I stopped going outside completely. I actually still played sports throughout High School, but just felt that the majority of my social interaction was through the computer.

During COVID is the first time I really stopped seeing other people (other than my wife and kids) and I actually enjoyed it. I have my own yard and house, so I do go outside on the occasion still, and make sure to get the mail each day. Some days I sit on my porch in the morning, if it feels nice. I do body weight exercises and yoga and I am having a full gym built in my basement.

That said, I still don't see many other people and I don't feel like my social needs are lacking.

I enjoy my life, it is good.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#525

Post by fartcannon » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:20 PM UTC

EricE wrote: post #491

fartcannon wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of tech savvy younger folks are perfectly capable of making relationships entirely online. I'm not even young, and I've done it myself. 25 years ago, I made several friends on Yahoo Chat! who I have never seen in real life but speak with regularly. Many more over the years via builtin boards. These days discord exists and it's a primary social source for a number of kids. These kids could enter a fully WFH work…

It's not just about making friends. It's about serendipity. It's about spontaneous and unplanned interactions that provide new paths for you. Yes, you can still have those remotely - but they are no where nearly as frequent, nor anywhere near as impactful. They simply can't be - your fighting millions of years of social evolution if you think otherwise. Heck I doubt most of us remember a fraction of spontaneous in pe…

Your life anecdotes are nice, but they are not a universal experience, and certainly don't apply to everyone (especially, if what I've seen is true, the younger generations). I'm middle aged now, but the most serendipitous things that have happened to me have been online. For example, my first roommate and then life long friend came to me via an online builtin board related to a project I created. My first job came to me through a reference from someone I knew on IRC. Heck, I met my wife through online dating!

It's just different now. After covid, even more so.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#526

Post by burkaman » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:21 PM UTC

richwater wrote: post #315

hbosch wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might seem exhausting, or annoying, or overly descriptive... but it is true and I find it hard to dispute.

how exactly does making people come to the office result in a more white workforce?

That one does seem the most questionable. Looking at an ethnicity map of Cupertino, it seems like in-office requirements would favor white and asian employees, as they tend to live closest to the Apple office. The other items in that list seem pretty uncontroversial to me though.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#527

Post by passivate » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:21 PM UTC

smeej wrote: post #466

listless wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working remotely is career limiting. Period. I’m saying that as a remote worker. I would not recommend that you get into full time remote work until you’ve decided you are OK with no significant career advancement.

Trying to force my neuro-divergent brain to work in an office setting where I'm surrounded by noisy people (any people, really), lights that may flicker, and temperatures I can't control is going to limit my career a lot more than failing to have serendipitous conversations in a hallway. What works for you may not be what works for everybody, and that's the point. It could be that remote work would have limited your…

>What works for you may not be what works for everybody, and that's the point.

Instead of making it personal, lets make it general. According to you how many people have a problem working in the office for the reasons you listed?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#528

Post by greybox » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:21 PM UTC

bckr wrote: post #322

richwater wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how exactly does making people come to the office result in a more white workforce?

Well, off the top of my head, black folks, asians, and latin folks might be more likely to be caretakers and/or further from the office. That said, if they have Apple salaries, I'm sure they can work it out. That said (again), they might need to spend more of that Apple salary than their peers to figure it out. So, it's a bold and unsubstantiated statement, but might have some truth to it. Idk, wish they would cite s…

Im pretty sure caretakers can;t work from home ....

Also isn't it pretty racist /sexist to suggest that just because your black or a woman, you won't be able to commute?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#529

Post by RC_ITR » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:25 PM UTC

jhenkens wrote: post #202

RC_ITR wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And do they ignore the fact that many of apple’s most important employees work in physically secured labs where physical device access is a major part of their job? Like sure GitHub can be remote top to bottom, but an insane amount of Apples workflow is prototype driven and those prototypes cannot physically leave their secure facilities. Hard to argue (from a retention standpoint) that those people need to come in f…

I'm sure at a certain stage it is prototype, in secured buildings. But I have a friend who works at Apple full time remote (for a dozen years now) who routinely gets unreleased hardware at home to work on the software changes for. They is very intentional about only revealing stuff after it is public, which I think is still technically a breach of his NDA (revealing that they'd been working on it).

This is completely off-topic, I'm just curious. Your friend's pronouns are They/his?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#530

Post by passivate » Tue, May 03, 2022, 7:26 PM UTC

banannaise wrote: post #486

EricE wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> There are tons of companies out there; it's going to be far easier to find one with a better match to you than trying to bend your existing company to your will. No, it isn't. Businesses tend to play "follow the leader", so the ability to find a company offering substantially different work conditions is limited. When facing a cartel, the solution is not "find an alternative". The idea of a cartel is to limit alter…

>No, it isn't. Businesses tend to play "follow the leader", so the ability to find a company offering substantially different work conditions is limited.

Assuming your premise is true, the 'leader' here would be remote-work if we are to believe that amazing benefits and therefore success that it can bring to a business. Businesses tend to copy things that other successful companies are doing.

You calling it a cartel situation is not fair, but I'm going to look the other way and assume you did that just for effect.