Web3? I have my DAOts • Hacker News Board

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#521

Post by ThomPete » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

grey-area wrote: post #428

ThomPete wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything can be manipulated, but bitcoin compared to any other asset we know, is the only thing that cant be changed. You can create a new bitcoin but you cant create the same bitcoin and thats makes all the difference in the world.

1. The rules can (and have) been changed by whoever has commit permissions on the repo, they are not immutable. 2. The rules can also be changed with a simple fork if enough users are persuaded to move (Bitcoin Cash) - and somehow the price of both is preserved (how? why? who benefits?). 3. The price is provided by unaudited exchanges and can be manipulated by manipulating linked assets and collusion with exchanges,…

1) The rules about the 21Million which is the only thing that matters here can't be changed.

2) Again there is a reason why Bitcoin Cash is a fraction of BTCs value it's not the same.

3) Everything can be manipulated. You go and see how Soros did that in the 90es. But again that's not the measurement here. It can't be changed.

It's been a house waiting to collapse for 12 years now. Maybe you should ask yourself what it would take for you to admit to yourself that you were wrong. How long does this have to be a thing?

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#522

Post by hermitsings » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 3:15 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #368

boc wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah the corporation is the rock - they aren't a market participant so them paying you and your friends a dividend isn't a net loss in the market for rocks. Instead simply holding rocks and not trading them is still generating money for the market participants. Bitcoin doesn't generate intrinsic value from a business operation - it's just a digital version of a rock. There's no money for it to pay out. Therefore you h…

> Nah the corporation is the rock - they aren't a market participant so them paying you and your friends a dividend isn't a net loss in the market for rocks. Except that it makes the rocks not worth as much. You had a corporation with a million dollar business and a million dollars in cash. It pays out the million dollars in cash as dividends. Now the rockholders have a million dollars in rocks and a million dollars…

One thing I'd say is the volatility. Imagine Bitcoin as a global payment mechanism for the world. It's capped sure(21m) but volatile. You're buying something in El Salvador and someone/someones in the world make the price crash. By the time you reach for your phone in pocket to make the payment (say) and begin to pay, your item now costs double of what it should have costed. How does that work?

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#523

Post by zepto » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 3:17 PM UTC

jtsiskin wrote: post #295

zepto wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NFTs don't necessarily represent ownership of the underlying asset They don’t ever .

That’s not true. If I owned the Mona Lisa what is stopping me from writing a legal contract “whoever owns this NFT is the legal owner of the Mona Lisa”?

Yes, it is true.

You can write that text all you like, but it wouldn’t be a legal contract.

Hint: Who is do you think is signing that contract, and who is going to enforce it?

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#524

Post by gghhzzgghhzz » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 3:17 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #401

grey-area wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

all the other assets that can absorb billions of dollars in liquidity are throughly manipulated Bitcoin is thoroughly manipulated. Tether is minting a billion dollars a day now, with zero oversight and close ties to the major exchanges. Exchanges themselves have been found front running customers, running wash trades on their own coins etc etc. Fraud is rampant in this space and there is zero oversight from the norma…

Everything can be manipulated, but bitcoin compared to any other asset we know, is the only thing that cant be changed. You can create a new bitcoin but you cant create the same bitcoin and thats makes all the difference in the world.

The crypto exchanges can sell more bitcoin than they have. Nobody is auditing them, and unless they collapse then there is not going to be an audit of what they hold. And with bitcoin being so impractical, there are is always going to be vast amounts of centralisation.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#525

Post by zepto » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 3:21 PM UTC

diveanon wrote: post #332

zepto wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The risk of the money being fraudulently taken back is close to zero. If you are worrying about that happening, then you are either a fraudster yourself, or just being paranoid. There is no major benefit to not having this. On the other hand, if a crypto transaction has any errors, the money is instantly lost forever, and nobody can help you. There is no upside to that at all.

I have been the victim of chargeback fraud and major banking errors that resulted in major losses that took months to recover. Irreversibly transferring funds and having complete ownership of them once they are in your possession is a huge feature.

I don’t know if you realize this but you proved my point perfectly.

Someone defrauded you, and you were able to recover the money.

With crypto, when you get defrauded, you will never see the money again. If you think there is no fraud in crypto, I have some things to sell you.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#526

Post by ozim » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

iskander wrote: post #63

whoisjuan wrote: post #25

I think the problem with the current state of Web3 is that it really doesn't seem to solve meaningful, mainstream problems yet. Even the most widely accepted use case which is crypto-currency fails to break out of the theoretical value outlined in the different white papers. I own several crypto-currencies and there hasn't been a single moment in which I thought of buying something with a crypto-currency. I have cryp…

>I own several crypto-currencies and there hasn't been a single moment in which I thought of buying something with a crypto-currency. This is entirely personal and subjective, but I prefer the user experience of Aave and Yearn to traditional banking with e.g. Chase. I also would way rather make large purchases with crypto (e.g. down payment on a house) compared with wiring money.

That is maybe some US centric view.

Wiring even large amount of money in EU online banking was definitely easier than anything I have seen in crypto world.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#527

Post by thow-58d4e8b » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

Joeboy wrote: post #480

grey-area wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, tens of billions of dollars, not trillions, my mistake. They are currently adding 1 billion a day at times, where does that money come from? Does anyone really believe 78,423,306,967 USD are currently invested in Tether?

I don't know anything about anything, but I see Wikipedia says Tether is 65% "backed by commercial paper". Which as far as I can tell basically means IOUs, but IOUs that are considered somewhat legit. It definitely seems questionable, but I'm not really sure how to assess how bad it is or isn't. 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tether_(cryptocurrency) Edit: I see elsewhere somebody saying "nobody in the commercial pa…

With Tether - it's best to follow "fraud until proven otherwise" principle

That "commercial paper" could very well be IOUs from themselves to themselves

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#528

Post by zepto » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 3:25 PM UTC

almostkorean wrote: post #245

zepto wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are just using a bad bank. The bank I use lets you initiate a wire via their iPhone app, and then they simply call to confirm security details etc. Far easier and safer than anything crypto has to offer. Not to mention that it’s a complete fantasy to expect all but the tiniest number of sellers to accept crypto today , so the comparison is between something that exists today and works very well, and something tha…

The bank I use is PNC, looks like it is currently the 7th largest bank in the US. To be fair, in the past month they opened a new branch which is a 10 minute drive, so that makes the first part a lot better. I am also lucky enough to live in a fairly high population area. After seeing the other comments I guess this wire transfer issue is specific to the US. I agree that a tiny number of sellers would accept crypto p…

> I don't expect the average person to ever transfer USDC the way it is done today, it would be a terrible user experience.

Therefore the service you are comparing against is one that only exists in your imagination, and is not real today.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#529

Post by NicoJuicy » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 3:35 PM UTC

psychstudio wrote: post #432

NicoJuicy wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin can be shorted. Bitcoin prints money ( eg tether) Bitcoin just doesn't work. It's centralized now to fix it's issues. Best of all, none is regulated and the whales hold the power. Even more in the future with proof of stake. There is more dilution and misunderstanding with crypto in general then I've ever seen.

Bitcoin is completely unrelated to tether. Bitcoin is highly decentralised. Bitcoin is not moving to PoS. I'm not sure what your actual gripe is, but you certainly have no idea what you're talking about.

Come again? I don't think you know what you're talking about...

Simple example:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tether_(cryptocurrency)

> Research by John M. Griffin and Amin Shams in 2018 suggests that trading associated with increases in the amount of tether and associated trading at the Bitfinex exchange account for about half of the price increase in bitcoin in late 2017.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#530

Post by brightstep » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 3:47 PM UTC

divs1210 wrote: post #349

Animats wrote: post #99

OK. The reason all this happening is that Bitcoin really did go to the moon. That's what powers all this speculation. If the price of Bitcoin had been stable for a decade, and it worked reliably, it would be a useful medium of exchange, but nobody would care. This is all about MAKE MONEY FAST. Bitcoin found some early use cases. Drugs first. Then getting money out of China. Money laundering. Tax evasion. Scams. Bitco…

Not only this, Satoshi had even predicted that the price would be very unstable and grow exponentially before it became stable. Early Bitcoiners have known this and predicted it several times. See this post from a decade ago for reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1c5j46/you_people_...

A correct prediction of the former doesn't imply a correct prediction of the latter. For what it's worth, I think it will become stable at around zero USD.