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Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#521

Post by d1sxeyes »

pasabagi wrote: post #517
d1sxeyes wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP didn't say 'the Germans', OP said 'The last time people did that en masse in Eastern Europe '. You thought you would score a point by embarrassing a stranger on the internet, but it didn't work out because you read something that OP didn't say. Pedantry is rarely a good look.

You should probably re-read his post. Plus, it's not pedantic. Saying that the holocaust was a eastern-european thing (or that the polish were largely responsible) is a common way the far right in germany try to diffuse and deflect responsibility. I don't think OP is doing that, but I still think it's an important thing to remember - that the holocaust was the project of western europeans , i.e. it's not somebody els…

> You should probably re-read his post.

I did

> Plus, it's not pedantic. Saying that the holocaust was a eastern-european thing (or that the polish were largely responsible) is a common way the far right in germany try to diffuse and deflect responsibility.

>I don't think OP is doing that, but I still think it's an important thing to remember - that the holocaust was the project of western europeans, i.e. it's not somebody else's problem.

In Hungary (which is after all the country in focus here), saying the holocaust was forced upon us by the Germans is similarly a common way the far right try to diffuse and deflect.

'the holocaust was the project of western europeans, i.e. it's not somebody else's problem' is only true if you are a Western European yourself. If you say that the holocaust was the project of western europeans in Hungary, it means the opposite of what you're trying to say.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#522

Post by tester34 »

trasz wrote: post #421
tester34 wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Poland's top universities - both of them - are at the very end of international rankings. It's hard to compare universities, unless you have attended both of them Innovation output != Quality of teaching Polish "computer-related" people are very often in top when it comes to e.g security (src: https://ctftime.org/ ) and top universities grads tends to have open doors to faang I've seen people from both of those grou…

Polish "computer-related people" can come out well even without graduating. This doesn't say much about universities. Let me put this way: I know people who graduated in Computer Science, in Poland, who can't program. Not in some particular language; they can't write programs, they just don't quite get the idea.

>Let me put this way: I know people who graduated in Computer Science, in Poland, who can't program. Not in some particular language; they can't write programs, they just don't quite get the idea.

Me too, but doesn't it happen in every country?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#523

Post by native_samples »

eperfa wrote: post #361
native_samples wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem is that a lot of these claims could apply to many other countries as well, and don't obviously implicate Orban in doing things that are clearly beyond the pale. For example: - The UK has got a bunch of boundary changes queued up that have been pending for years, which will benefit the ruling party. It sounds bad when put like that, however the boundary changes themselves were recalculated using ce…

What is being done by Fidesz is definitely not what "most other developed countries" do. I won't be able to discuss all topics, but I'll give you a few examples of the media situation. There were several businessmen who became extremely wealthy within a very short period, either by working directly for the government (usually with all the typical signs of corruption), or by getting financed directly or indirectly by…

That's useful additional context and information, thanks. My point was only that without deep knowledge of the situation, many of the allegations sound not so different from things that happen elsewhere in Europe.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#524

Post by pasabagi »

d1sxeyes wrote: post #521
pasabagi wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should probably re-read his post. Plus, it's not pedantic. Saying that the holocaust was a eastern-european thing (or that the polish were largely responsible) is a common way the far right in germany try to diffuse and deflect responsibility. I don't think OP is doing that, but I still think it's an important thing to remember - that the holocaust was the project of western europeans , i.e. it's not somebody els…

> You should probably re-read his post. I did > Plus, it's not pedantic. Saying that the holocaust was a eastern-european thing (or that the polish were largely responsible) is a common way the far right in germany try to diffuse and deflect responsibility. >I don't think OP is doing that, but I still think it's an important thing to remember - that the holocaust was the project of western europeans, i.e. it's not so…

Obviously, different countries participated in the Holocaust to varying degrees, ranging from turning a blind eye, to deportations, to active participation. That's even true amongst some of the allies (the UK, for instance, turned back many Jews attempting to flee).

Still, it's just a fact that the holocaust was a German policy, organized and largely staffed by Germans. I think that while much of eastern europe was and still is profoundly antisemetic, the Germans would have absolutely carried out the holocaust even if the opposite was the case. That many people took part in the process is obviously shameful in every instance, but the OP comment makes it out as if it was like some plebiscite of eastern europe - which it obviously was not.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#525

Post by joelbluminator »

speeder wrote: post #495
joelbluminator wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well times changed, Iran is very close to nuclear weapons

in response to Israel developing them first... So I guess strategically for Israel, making nukes was a mistake.

Great theory. If it wasn't for Israel there would be world peace.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#526

Post by no_time »

bwb wrote: post #378
fallingknife wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am always amazed how many people say things like this while comfortably living behind the economic walls of their rich nation typing on a phone made by near slaves on the other side of it.

I am always amazed by the assumptions people make :) What do you disagree with? I have family living in China, and I live in Portugal. Why do you like nationalism so much and feel so threatened by the loss of your nation as an identity? Why is it not enough to just be human surrounded by other humans who are identical to you?

Because the average western urbanite that would become the majority in a federal EU thinks vastly differently from me. I identify with a lot of groups other than my nationality but I always felt 0% European mainly because of the amount of insanity going on to west of where I am.

As far as I'm concerned I can't wait for this whole shitshow to end up on the chopping block.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#527

Post by d1sxeyes »

pasabagi wrote: post #524
d1sxeyes wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You should probably re-read his post. I did > Plus, it's not pedantic. Saying that the holocaust was a eastern-european thing (or that the polish were largely responsible) is a common way the far right in germany try to diffuse and deflect responsibility. >I don't think OP is doing that, but I still think it's an important thing to remember - that the holocaust was the project of western europeans, i.e. it's not so…

Obviously, different countries participated in the Holocaust to varying degrees, ranging from turning a blind eye, to deportations, to active participation. That's even true amongst some of the allies (the UK, for instance, turned back many Jews attempting to flee). Still, it's just a fact that the holocaust was a German policy, organized and largely staffed by Germans. I think that while much of eastern europe was a…

OK, we read the comment a bit differently then.

For me, I see OP's mention of Eastern Europe as a link to Hungary, which is the focus of the article, rather than as a general, out-of-context attempt to shift the blame from Germany to Eastern Europe.

I guess we've now both made our points, and it's come down to a question of what OP meant rather than the words on the screen. I don't think either of us have managed to convince the other, so without more input from OP, we're at an impasse.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#528

Post by andrepd »

ashtonkem wrote: post #436
joelbluminator wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's either a true statement in the general case of that region of the middle east or it isn't. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue.

1) It’s a false dichotomy. There are more paths forward other than “tolerate ’s misbehavior” and “let control the region”. The fact that this line is used by those who want more power should make anyone wary. 2) Tolerating the gross misbehavior of one state or leader because you perceive them as a bulwark against other worse leaders is an extremely foolish course. Not only does it expose ones ideals as being hollow a…

> 2) Tolerating the gross misbehavior of one state or leader because you perceive them as a bulwark against other worse leaders is an extremely foolish course. Not only does it expose ones ideals as being hollow and situational, but it often creates new problems that must be contained later.

The summary of US foreign policy since WW2 x)

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#529

Post by bwb »

no_time wrote: post #526
bwb wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am always amazed by the assumptions people make :) What do you disagree with? I have family living in China, and I live in Portugal. Why do you like nationalism so much and feel so threatened by the loss of your nation as an identity? Why is it not enough to just be human surrounded by other humans who are identical to you?

Because the average western urbanite that would become the majority in a federal EU thinks vastly differently from me. I identify with a lot of groups other than my nationality but I always felt 0% European mainly because of the amount of insanity going on to west of where I am. As far as I'm concerned I can't wait for this whole shitshow to end up on the chopping block.

How do they think differently than you?Where are you based?

My guess is you want to live in an unpolluted environment where the land/water doesn't make you sick, eat food that doesn't kill you, if you want/have kids to know they will have the chance of a good life and good education, have a government free from corruption, know that your legal system treats everyone as fair and equally as possible as a goal, have fair labor practices, and generally be treated with respect. etc...

We are all the same, the differences are amplified to a crazy amount and they shouldn't define us.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#530

Post by pasabagi »

d1sxeyes wrote: post #527
pasabagi wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, different countries participated in the Holocaust to varying degrees, ranging from turning a blind eye, to deportations, to active participation. That's even true amongst some of the allies (the UK, for instance, turned back many Jews attempting to flee). Still, it's just a fact that the holocaust was a German policy, organized and largely staffed by Germans. I think that while much of eastern europe was a…

OK, we read the comment a bit differently then. For me, I see OP's mention of Eastern Europe as a link to Hungary, which is the focus of the article, rather than as a general, out-of-context attempt to shift the blame from Germany to Eastern Europe. I guess we've now both made our points, and it's come down to a question of what OP meant rather than the words on the screen. I don't think either of us have managed to…

>what OP meant rather than the words on the screen

Mmm, I was actually just pushing back against the words on the screen. I don't doubt the OP means it the way you read it. I guess I don't generally see a rejoinder as a way of embarrassing the person I'm replying too - rather as a way of contesting the point, refining it, or clarifying it. I actually quite rarely notice who I'm talking to online.

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