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Biden launches action on "Big Tech, Big Pharma, and Big Ag" – can it be real?

mattstoller.substack.com

521–530 of 595 posts

Re: Biden launches action on "Big Tech, Big Pharma, and Big Ag" – can it be real?

#521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a third issue: The high cost of medicines that are low cost to produce, and are sold at low cost elsewhere

This one is particularly prickly because the high cost paid in the US funds medical R&D and extremely expensive clinical trials which other countries are free riding on by imposing price controls. We still need to fund the R&D and clinical trials (unless they could be made less expensive somehow), so the most obvious solution would be to have other countries pay their fair share so the US could stop subsidizing every…

Except these companies spend more on marketing than rnd.

Re: Biden launches action on "Big Tech, Big Pharma, and Big Ag" – can it be real?

#522
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of like how list price means everyone pays the same price for a car? What would happen is more of what we already see: tons of addons being pushed, rebates or other ways to adjust prices for some people without lowering them, random specialists and unnecessary services being pulled in relying on the fact that most people don’t realize they can and should say no, and a whole industry of people finding ways to say…

Flip side you can actually shop around for the best car price. Can’t even do that at us hospitals

Exactly - it’s not a normal market and there are hard limits preventing it from ever working like that, no matter how many people desperately try to pretend otherwise because it’s personally profitable for them.

Re: Biden launches action on "Big Tech, Big Pharma, and Big Ag" – can it be real?

#523
post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To get approval in US and Europe, the trials need to be of the same quality no matter where they are run. Sometimes it may be cheaper in poorer countries because you don't have to pay your volunteers as much. You still need to check all the appropriate boxes regarding informed consent as anywhere else. And, of course, western companies are entirely capable to run trials anywhere in the world. The COVID vaccine trials…

Am Russian, am vaccinated with Sputnik V, would do it again. Yes, the study was rushed and details were missing, but, eventually, all things got in order. And it's a real working vaccine, effects of which I see basically every day on my friends.

Yes: unless a vaccine is harmful, it’s better to have than not. Higher effectiveness is better, of course, but if there was ever a time to say “don’t let perfect be the enemy of good”, it’s during a raging pandemic.

Re: Biden launches action on "Big Tech, Big Pharma, and Big Ag" – can it be real?

#524
post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe does drug R&D and still manages to sell their drugs at a reasonable price to sick people (generally because their governments utilize their buying power for the good of their citizens). It seems to me that US people have been sold FUD by there own pharma companies, if I’m honest.

In the context of this discussion, ‘Europe’ doesn’t do ‘R&D’. Biotech/Pharma are international. Irrespective of the home location of the organisation, virtually every drug trial from phase I onwards will be run in multiple countries. Further, virtually every drug found to work and filed with regulators for a license, will be filed internationally: Europe (EMA), US (FDA), and a whole host of smaller independent countr…

> In the context of this discussion, ‘Europe’ doesn’t do ‘R&D’.

Ever wonder why it’s the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine? It’s because the simple nationalist narrative you’re repeating is misrepresenting a far more complicated international research story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioNTech

Re: Biden launches action on "Big Tech, Big Pharma, and Big Ag" – can it be real?

#525

"Big Pharma" in the eyes of the public is two related but separate issues; 1) the weird employment-insurance-hospital loop that has developed in the US, and the terrible second-order-consequences of all the open-high/settle-low insurer carer system it led to, and 2) the medicine advertisements, and all the terrible consequences thereof. The second one seems like a much easier thing to get rid of using hard government…

The corruption runs deeper than that. Something like 50% of drug discovery is funded by US govt, taxpayers. Yet 100% of the profits from new drugs goes to big pharma. They're robbing us.

Re: Biden launches action on "Big Tech, Big Pharma, and Big Ag" – can it be real?

#526

Big pharma is significantly less of a problem than the physician and hospital cartels. I have no idea why these groups have survived scrutiny for their literal multi-hundred million dollar lobbying/bribery of politicians. My closest guess is that we all know "My" physician or a well paid nurse that benefits from the bribery.

I would think tech is now at the point to undermine micro-exploiters who extract punitive payments from people who feel that there is no viable alternative provider (e.g. a specialist who requires completely unnecessary monthly visits, gives a cursory glance, keeps treatment unchanged and charges hundreds in the process).

What do you think? - Is this something tech CAN do today, with an open source application and publicly available data?

Re: Biden launches action on "Big Tech, Big Pharma, and Big Ag" – can it be real?

#527
post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Europe does drug R&D and still manages to sell their drugs at a reasonable price to sick people Most novel R&D, in America and Europe, happens in biotech. (“Big” pharma does trials, manufacturing scaling and distribution.) The investment thesis for most of this research does not work without the American market. This doesn’t mean high drug prices are a necessity. Just that the funding needs to be replaced if we wan…

But to be fair, the US pharma sector spends roughly as much on marketing as it does on R&D. And a huge chunk of that R&D budget goes into analogue drugs to either sidestep patents from rivals or maintain profit margins when their own patents expire (they can then use that huge marketing budget to get the newly patented drug to take over for the old one with the nearly-expired patent, despite small or non-existent ben…

> But to be fair, the US pharma sector spends roughly as much on marketing as it does on R&D.

Spending money on marketing lowers prices by increasing volumes.

If you spend a billion dollars on R&D and then spend nothing on marketing and sell to 200,000 customers, they would each have to pay $5000 to fund the R&D. If you spend a billion dollars on R&D and two billion dollars on marketing and sell to a million customers, they would each have to pay $3000 to fund both the R&D and the marketing.

And it also does something useful, assuming the new drug is actually beneficial, by making people aware of the existence of something that would make their lives better. It helps no one to invent a great new thing that then nobody uses because nobody knows it exists.

> And a huge chunk of that R&D budget goes into analogue drugs to either sidestep patents from rivals or maintain profit margins when their own patents expire (they can then use that huge marketing budget to get the newly patented drug to take over for the old one with the nearly-expired patent, despite small or non-existent benefits from a medical perspective).

It doesn't actually cost that much to do that because you already know what you're looking for in that case. It's the real R&D that costs money.

> So long story short, there's a pretty good case to be made that public research with somewhere between 1/10th and 1/5th the budget of big pharma is all it takes to match or overtake them in innovation, as measured by actual benefit to the patients.

The biggest problem with public research funding is how to allocate it.

With a profit motive and market competition, the people who allocate research funding inefficiently go out of business and the people who allocate it well make a lot of money, and then have more money to fund more research.

Without that, research funding turns into defense contracting and then we waste trillions of dollars and have nothing to show for it. Or worse, politicians say we'll only need 1/10th of the budget even though the incentives aren't actually there to improve efficiency, and then we get 1/10th of the research.

Re: Biden launches action on "Big Tech, Big Pharma, and Big Ag" – can it be real?

#528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ok, so 65 drugs in development, with 6.5 drugs released per year? does that seem plausible for the entire pharma industry?

You notice you are off by a factor 10 and don't pause for a moment but instead immediately go "ok, so"?

If it costs a billion dollars to develop a drug and pharma spends 6.5 billion on ads, that would mean an implausibly small number of drugs being developed, no?

I don't see any reason to believe that pharma spends more on ads than R&D. Do you?

Re: Biden launches action on "Big Tech, Big Pharma, and Big Ag" – can it be real?

#529
post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, it's the governments attempts to lower health care costs that produced this mess of high prices.

I highly doubt that even without government intervention prices would be lower. Healthcare is not a free market and yet Americans still try to pretend it's one. The information asymmetry is huge and nobody's going to negotiate/look around for anything when they think they're close to their deathbed.

> Healthcare is not a free market

Health care was a free market until the following events:

1. requirement for government licenses for doctors, which was done to drive Jewish and Black doctors out of business, and to restrict the supply of doctors

2. the advent of employer-provided health care during WW2, which due to tax policy married health care coverage to one's job

3. the 1962 FDA amendments which required efficacy for drug approval (not just safety) leading to a tripling of drug costs and a corresponding drop in new drug development

4. the introduction of Medicare/Medicaid in 1968

5. ever more regulation and interference in the market, like requirements the emergency rooms treat for free

Regardless of whether one thinks these are good things or not, they detract from health care being a free market.

Re: Biden launches action on "Big Tech, Big Pharma, and Big Ag" – can it be real?

#530
post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But to be fair, the US pharma sector spends roughly as much on marketing as it does on R&D. And a huge chunk of that R&D budget goes into analogue drugs to either sidestep patents from rivals or maintain profit margins when their own patents expire (they can then use that huge marketing budget to get the newly patented drug to take over for the old one with the nearly-expired patent, despite small or non-existent ben…

> But to be fair, the US pharma sector spends roughly as much on marketing as it does on R&D. Spending money on marketing lowers prices by increasing volumes. If you spend a billion dollars on R&D and then spend nothing on marketing and sell to 200,000 customers, they would each have to pay $5000 to fund the R&D. If you spend a billion dollars on R&D and two billion dollars on marketing and sell to a million customer…

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