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Europe's Software Problem

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Re: Europe's Software Problem

#521

Post by MichaelRazum »

hocuspocus wrote: post #194
MichaelRazum wrote: post #113

Living in EU. Can only say, the main reason is in my perspective regulatory and taxes. Some points - It is difficult to issue equity and get equity (tax) - Each EU country has different taxes. You are taxed lower in Netherlands than in Germany. - Each country has different regulation rules. If you do something exciting. Wow let's say a social network. You would be killed by regulation and data privacy rules. Autonomo…

> Autonomous driving the same. Blockchain forget it. There's plenty of both in the EU. And blockchain is more useful as a counter-example of innovation than anything.

Autonomous driving. Which company plays in the same field as Us and or even Chinese companies?

Blockchain: IT is controversial about the usefulness. But it is far more easier to make (legal) money with it outside of EU or in some small crypto friendly EU countries.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#522

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

tatsuhirosatou wrote: post #416
jillesvangurp wrote: post #179

I'm a European, living in Europe, developing software. Lack of imagination is not our problem. It's so good that we supply our best talent to the US where it does extremely well revolutionizing AI, designing hardware for Apple, developing games, stream online music, etc. E.g. Amazon's CTO is Dutch. Basically the person that has been running AWS. The people and the education system are fine. Europe does have a few iss…

Probably it is harder to scale startups in Europe vs the US. But is that something nations should optimize for? And if so, what priority should be given to "ease of rapid growth for startups" vs many other issues that determine economic growth and a population's well being? Also, how much of the problem is due to the issues you raise vs other factors such amount of money spent in R&D? The US has a huge amount of "def…

> Finally, is translation and localization really that hard? Is it that expensive to hire some sales & marketing staff in new markets where you could be making tons of money?

Generally, successful technology businesses have low marginal cost to serve new customers. You pay some amount X, to setup in a market and then can scale out relatively cheaply.

The US is great because you pay X once, and then scale quite a lot. Each European country requires that you pay X (or maybe X/4), but it essentially acts as a tax which reduces margins.

Languages/cultures are hard, yo.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#523

Post by _abox »

nickpp wrote: post #505
dmitriid wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everybody except those who created the problem in the first place. For over a decade there have been laws in each country protecting people's private data. Companies kept on ignoring those laws. The countries came together and created a single law for the entirety of the EU. The essence of the law: - if you need some data for the functionality of your service, you can collect it - if you don't need some data for th…

Please open an incognito browser window and go to the "Official website of the European Union": https://europa.eu/european-union/index_en Look at the bottom of the page. It's a cookie banner. It was their law. They had 6 years to implement it on their own website. This is the result. The law is broken.

This is pretty much how it's supposed to work under GDPR. Offering a clear choice without bias. GDPR isn't about banning cookies. It's about giving the user control of their data.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#524

Post by MichaelRazum »

jahsis wrote: post #137
MichaelRazum wrote: post #113

Living in EU. Can only say, the main reason is in my perspective regulatory and taxes. Some points - It is difficult to issue equity and get equity (tax) - Each EU country has different taxes. You are taxed lower in Netherlands than in Germany. - Each country has different regulation rules. If you do something exciting. Wow let's say a social network. You would be killed by regulation and data privacy rules. Autonomo…

This! Companies from smaller countries even can't grow, just because local market is big as it is and if you want to grow, you need to sell goods/services in other countries, which means you need lawyers to get into all tax and other legal nuances. Just by fixing this issues for small companies would boom growth of tech and other companies.

exactly and it gets hell of complex since every country has its own tax rules. Especially CFC rules and so on makes your life pretty difficult. Big companies can of course play the game very well.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#525

Post by jillesvangurp »

usaar333 wrote: post #214
jillesvangurp wrote: post #179

I'm a European, living in Europe, developing software. Lack of imagination is not our problem. It's so good that we supply our best talent to the US where it does extremely well revolutionizing AI, designing hardware for Apple, developing games, stream online music, etc. E.g. Amazon's CTO is Dutch. Basically the person that has been running AWS. The people and the education system are fine. Europe does have a few iss…

Given the small country issue, a better comparison would be Israel. It has a thriving startup scene while only having 10 million people.

Israel is a bit special because of the strong military and economic ties it has with the US and the shared strategic goals in the region. Simply put, that Iron Dome we saw in action a few weeks ago involved a lot of US built hardware and support, lots of high tech stuff from Israeli companies also selling to the US, etc. There are many billions involved with that stuff. That means Israeli companies tend to be extremely well funded (with US and Israeli defense money) and produce many equally well funded spin offs. A lot of these startups bootstrap straight out of the IDF even.

Also, Israel has a large jewish community in the US involved with the financial sector that wields quite a bit of political power. And Israel uses English as a second language inside Israel, and is culturally closely aligned with the US.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#526

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #286
selfhoster11 wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America's problems are numerous and have been discussed elsewhere at length. Suffice to say that sometime between 9/11 and the 2008 financial crisis, America has not been keeping up with other economies in terms of what makes a first world country worth living in. Biden may change that, or he may not. In any case, America has a lot of catching up to do if they want to overtake Europe (and some other places) in anythi…

> America's problems are numerous and have been discussed elsewhere at length. Suffice to say that sometime between 9/11 and the 2008 financial crisis, America has not been keeping up with other economies in terms of what makes a first world country worth living in. Maybe. Or maybe the media is just peddling negativity such that we are overexposed. I moved to Europe a decade ago and have since returned, and plan to g…

A black friend of mine who's a travel writer (hence has lived in a bunch of different countries) says that she often finds more problems in terms of racism in Europe, relative to the US.

Also, a few years back some Indian extraction friends of mine were complaining about casual racism in the Western European country they were living in.

So, it's probably not as great as some US media portrays, but it's definitely not as bad as the other US media portrays.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#527

Post by etripe »

qsort wrote: post #78
selfhoster11 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. The US has those things and it's turning into a "third world country with a Gucci belt" (as someone put it) for everyone except the 1% and the indispensable knowledge worker class that can't be automated away or juiced dry for all the productivity they are capa…

Not going to comment on anything else since "flexible working laws" and "less relaxing lifestyle" can mean anything, but "light a fire under their ass until they are forced to innovate" is unironically and unapologetically good. If there's one thing that consistently fosters innovation and progress it's competition. That's something that holds true everywhere. Software, industry, education, games, sports, you name it…

> If there's one thing that consistently fosters innovation and progress it's competition.

That statement is a bit of a truism, isn't it? If you squint hard enough, you can call most things a competition. If all else fails, in the sexual marketplace because financial success is an indicator of romantic success for males, who happen to have driven a lot of the innovation up to this point.

It also ignores the nuance to be found in whether and where to focus on public investment versus private investment, for one. I don't think you can really sensibly frame all public investment as competition, unless you're stretching it to the amorphous "international competition", in which case the principle is dangerously close to being unfalsifiable.

I'm not saying competition has no role to play, but where are inspiration, the joy of creation, altruism and wanting to abolish frustration and greater problems? We don't just have selfish genes.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#528

Post by drstewart »

kaba0 wrote: post #479
drstewart wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All European developers are lower paid compared to their US counterparts. Except maybe Swiss ones.

And as I said is not really something outright comparable. Housing is more expensive, no universal healthcare, etc.

Housing is more expensive? Have you seen rent prices in London or Zurich?

Developers get great healthcare.

It's pretty comparable.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#529

Post by nextaccountic »

varispeed wrote: post #384
lesto wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As EUropean living in a different country for work, is not that easy at all. Try to do your taxes in Swedish or German or French.. Or try to have a social life with people that while could speak English will probably switch to their own language when in more than 2-3 person. Yes of course you can learn the language, but dont think you can be proficient in a couple of year, especially if working 40h/week, and still yo…

> will probably switch to their own language when in more than 2-3 person. That's just rude and why would you want to socialise with such people. I had some great experiences and even when I was the only person not speaking the local language, everyone spoke English in my presence. There is plenty of people that have standards and if you cannot find them at a given time, just focus on something else.

> I had some great experiences and even when I was the only person not speaking the local language, everyone spoke English in my presence

That's kinda rude if non-English speaking people join the conversation.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#530

Post by nickpp »

_abox wrote: post #523
nickpp wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please open an incognito browser window and go to the "Official website of the European Union": https://europa.eu/european-union/index_en Look at the bottom of the page. It's a cookie banner. It was their law. They had 6 years to implement it on their own website. This is the result. The law is broken.

This is pretty much how it's supposed to work under GDPR. Offering a clear choice without bias. GDPR isn't about banning cookies. It's about giving the user control of their data.

Well then - cookie popups that must be clicked every time you visit a website until you accept them, must be ok with you, since "this is how it's supposed to work under GDPR".

Sorry, but I don't agree. I consider them a scourge on today's Internet. And I find them a horribly steep price for the "privacy" (really just a lousy IP address obfuscation) you gain in their stead.

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