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Changes at Basecamp

world.hey.com

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Re: Changes at Basecamp

#521
post #106
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are actively misinterpreting what they said. a) They explicitly state that employees are allowed to actively discuss these things, just not in group chat. b) They explicitly state that this isn't "some high consequences zero tolerance policy" and that the consequence for violating the rule will be that you are reminded of the rule. It's sad that this is the top comment.

The "not in group chat" part was added later after the backlash. The original version of the post said employees can't talk about it, period. And the severity of the punishment isn't what is being debated here, but the fact that there can be punishment at all.

Without any insider information, it seems equally as likely that they just better clarified what they originally meant versus backtracking in response to backlash.

"Reminding people not to talk about politics and then moving on" doesn't really seem like a "punishment".

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#522

Hard for me to take it seriously when providing a gym stipend is “paternalistic” but not trusting your employees to discuss certain topics is supposed to be smart business.

I am totally on board with this. I get extra subsidy for health insurance at work if I walk 7000 steps a day - $750 per year. I was already walking over 10k steps daily for years. But what if you have bad knees or live in a dangerous neighborhood or simply don't like walking? That to me is paternalistic behavior. If you want subsidize my health insurance, just do it. But I don't need my employer to be my mommy, no ma…

I don't know if it is good or not to have gym benefits so I cannot comment if removing it is a good or bad decision.

With regards to "But what if you have bad knees or live in a dangerous neighborhood or simply don't like walking?"

This is very simple to fix: thing about this in terms of equity not equality. Do not eliminate a benefit but think how can include more people by changing the metric.

If someone has bad knees or don't like walking but still want to participate in this subsidy then the fix is not to eliminate the subsidy for everyone, but to have different metrics for people to opt in.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My company has mandated that 40% of our recruiting contacts for engineers are women. We have spent weeks talking about bias in our interview process and despite having no metrics showing bias is a problem we have made changes to combat it (i.e. no video on the call) that have led to worse experiences for our candidates. Suffice to say we have had a lot of trouble hiring engineers. > Why wouldn't you want to bring the…

How many woman engineers are in your team as a percent of total?

How many women are engineers as a percent of total engineers? Given the current ratio in my generation (mid thirties) we are at least decades away of having a significant ratio of senior engineers candidates, so I'm not sure your question is relevant to assess anything.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you described is talking about personal interests and activities, and I agree that is the kind of stuff that is easy and fun to talk (and hear) about with others. I’m starting to think many people don’t have personal activities and interests and don’t know what to fill in small talk with other than what they saw on social media or the news.

What about people whose personal interests and activities directly involve politics? Like people interested in political analysis or reporting, or people interested in competitive policy debate, or even people who actively do advocacy work in their free time? Is small talk about the advocacy work you did over the weekend worse than my small talk about building drones over the weekend?

Yes, in fact those people who enjoy politics and advocacy outside of work should be actively discouraged from working in high performing organizations. I certainly filter them out during my interview process as they are more likely to be a liability than a great worker who gets the job done.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But to others, "politics at work" means "are we paying women and men the same for doing the same job?" and "are our recruiting practices leading to a non-diverse workforce and missing out on great people who should work here?" and "what problems does our company sole, and for whom?". These are really important questions. Why wouldn't you want to bring them up at work? I really detest such things, and the "problem"…

> I don't give a fuck Some people would say you have the _privilege_ to not give a fuck

Yes, we live in a privileged society where all people are considered equal.

People who practice positive or negative discrimination should get with the program.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no quota. There are goals to improve these numbers. But there is no quota in the professional world. You're simply misinformed on this. I have direct primary source information from recruiting personnel in "Google and Facebook and Amazon and Microsoft" that there are significant specific quota'd positions. These programs leaking to non-woke press is going to be an outrage.

Goals != Quotas. This is frequently misunderstood by people outside these companies (and frequently by people inside them too without integrity). You're supposed to meet goals without compromising on integrity or quality. e.g. you can't ship buggy messes. And you can't hire substandard employees. There are mechanisms ("bar raisers") in place to do this, at least at Amazon. I suppose I can't speak for Google, Facebook…

I worked at Google and was interviewing twice a week for years. They had "goals" then too. They made the same claims, that it wouldn't affect employee quality, and I believed it at first.

But the goals were incentivised with money and what happens when you do that? The system was bent in all sorts of creative but illegitimate ways to try and get there. Women would fail interviews and be passed to the next stages anyway. They were given the best interviewers that were preferred by the hiring committees, and men who were mis-interviewed were simply dropped on the floor instead of re-doing the process or filtering the bad interviewers out. I was told they were doing this by the recruiters themselves. They organised hiring events from which men were forbidden from taking part. And so on.

More problematically post-hiring there were no real controls, so women were unfireable. Women who caused so much trouble their team rejected them weren't fired like the men were, but rather were endlessly moved around between teams. Hiring isn't perfect so if you filter out the bad men and leave the bad women, it's the same as lowering the bar for women - the bar lowering just happens at a slightly different place.

But that was some years ago. Tech firms became much more extreme since then. A recruiter leaked YouTube's instructions to do biased hiring previously, and nothing happened. Firms have been given carte blance to discriminate against men by western governments, they're constantly attacked by an activist class who insist they do so - what do you think happens? Of course they are discriminating. How else could they achieve their goals? "Encouragement" is a fantasy, there aren't huge pools of women who are inexplicably refusing to apply to major tech firms.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#527
post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But to others, "politics at work" means "are we paying women and men the same for doing the same job?" and "are our recruiting practices leading to a non-diverse workforce and missing out on great people who should work here?" and "what problems does our company sole, and for whom?". These are really important questions. Why wouldn't you want to bring them up at work? I really detest such things, and the "problem"…

That's a position of privilege. Only people who aren't discriminated against can afford to take a position of indifference.

I legitimately believe that "not giving a fuck about differences" is the goal we should all aim for. Yes, I am lucky that I can afford this mindset, but if I want everyone to also benefit from this privilege (such that it isn't a privilege anymore, but the standard), how do I do ?

I live in a country where the differences are handled almost the exact opposite to what is done in the US. Instead of spreading positive discrimination that reinforces the idea that we're all different and actually promoting communautarism, we believe that our differences are fundamentally a private matter and when we want to build something together we leverage our common interest and values. It's all idealistic but in practice our racism isn't as widespread and brutal as other places, which is why I'm convinced it is the right way to follow

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Discussing people’s membership in groups like cis or Native American or whatever else IS an unwanted political act. Unwanted by whom?

By most people. You know, non-activists. We just want to come to work, do our jobs, hang out with other people passionate about what they do. Just enjoy this time and not engage in political activism. Is this too much to ask?

Yes, because that's a privilege that many people don't get. By saying that you are saying that your comfort is more important than the safety and values of other people that don't get your privilege.

If you really don't want to interact with these discussions then don't, but don't silence other voices.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your latter example is also expressly undesirable in the workplace. You are hired to build product, not obsess over the diversity of the employee base, unless you are hired in a DEI role specifically. Asking the questions you are asking is political. Discussing people’s membership in groups like cis or Native American or whatever else IS an unwanted political act. Those group identities are fundamentally political to…

> Discussing people’s membership in groups like cis or Native American or whatever else IS an unwanted political act. Unwanted by whom?

In this case, I was referring specifically to the policy mentioned in the article.

But it’s a valid question more broadly as well, and some of the other answers have been dismissive.

In general it is unwanted by people who prefer to be treated (and to treat others) as individuals rather than group members. People who want to interact with others based on individual qualities and merits, irrespective of group associations (especially immutable characteristics like height, skin colour, hair colour, etc).

I believe this (for now) still represents the majority of people in the US, and probably in some other countries as well.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By most people. You know, non-activists. We just want to come to work, do our jobs, hang out with other people passionate about what they do. Just enjoy this time and not engage in political activism. Is this too much to ask?

Yes, because that's a privilege that many people don't get. By saying that you are saying that your comfort is more important than the safety and values of other people that don't get your privilege. If you really don't want to interact with these discussions then don't, but don't silence other voices.

But they haven’t actually silenced anyone. They’ve said employees are free to even congregate in personal groups with other employees to discuss politics. Just not on company Basecamp.
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