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Activists who embrace nuclear power

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Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#521
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many crops benefit from partial shade, as do industrial-building roofs, and parking lots. So, claiming that land used for solar can't be used for anything else, and must be new development displacing ecosystems, is not honest. There are numerous viable storage alternatives; the only open question is which will turn out to be cheapest. Underground compressed air is interesting because it can use otherwise-mothballed t…

> Many crops benefit from partial shade, as do industrial-building roofs, and parking lots. So, claiming that land used for solar can't be used for anything else, and must be new development displacing ecosystems, is not honest. Rooftop and parking lot solar are not nearly enough to meet our energy needs. 1,400 acres per GW! Are there fully-functional farms that can operate on 1,400 covered acres? Is there a function…

> Storing hydrogen is a nightmare

So is storing enriched uranium. Again this is not a point in favor of nuclear.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#522
post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coal power plants also carry a lot more radiation into their surrounding environment than nuclear power plants: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-...

Yes, the real irony - coal plants release more radiation into the environment than nuclear plants ever have - including Chernobyl.

A great example of a low impact, high frequency event being underweighted.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#523
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many crops benefit from partial shade, as do industrial-building roofs, and parking lots. So, claiming that land used for solar can't be used for anything else, and must be new development displacing ecosystems, is not honest. There are numerous viable storage alternatives; the only open question is which will turn out to be cheapest. Underground compressed air is interesting because it can use otherwise-mothballed t…

> Many crops benefit from partial shade, as do industrial-building roofs, and parking lots. So, claiming that land used for solar can't be used for anything else, and must be new development displacing ecosystems, is not honest. Rooftop and parking lot solar are not nearly enough to meet our energy needs. 1,400 acres per GW! Are there fully-functional farms that can operate on 1,400 covered acres? Is there a function…

> Are there fully-functional farms that can operate on 1,400 covered acres?

"Benefit from partial shade" means exactly that. Any 2800-acre farm that welcomes 50% shade, or any four such 700-acre farms, can. But there has thus far been no demand for the technique, because there is in fact no shortage yet of land for 100% coverage. I have personally seen a large number of fully shaded parking lots; I daresay you have, too.

Solar farms do not need 1400 connected acres. Fourteen 100-acre solar farms are more useful, producing a peak 71 MW each. In my immediate area, just recently, a decommissioned 20-acre landfill ("It’s not exactly a tourist area") was turned into a solar farm, producing useful power the very same year as it began construction. https://highlandscurrent.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Sunl...>

Canals in India are being roofed over with solar panels, reducing evaporation loss. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_Solar_Power_Project> Panels are being floated on hydroelectric dam reservoirs, all over the world, for the same benefit, with easy access to the power grid. Los Angeles could float 175 acres of panels over its municipal reservoir, replacing the black plastic balls it floats today to absorb sunlight that would produce bromates. https://www.sciencealert.com/here-s-what-s-really-going-on-w...>

Railroad rights-of-way are similarly available.

A large fraction of carbon-neutral power comes from wind turbines, which also have encountered no difficulty locating space to operate, already often shared with existing farms and ranches.

Air compression is familiar tech.

So, the only remaining question is which of the others will turn out to be cheaper than air. Hydrogen is essential feedstock in many industries, where storage and handling have long since been worked out, so synergy may push H2 over the line, particularly once it becomes the dominant aviation fuel. There is of course no difficulty with storing or using ammonia, and similar synergies apply. Modern catalytic methods are much more efficient than traditional Haber-Bosch, Sabatier, or electrolysis processes, so costs are plummeting, and the ultimate winner, if there is only one, is unpredictable. In other words, they are all viable, and getting better.

In all cases the costs are still in free fall, so nukes, as already mature tech, fall progressively farther behind.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#524
post #509
post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(1/2) > without wind as a kind of a complement, solar is completely not feasible This is not correct, and there is no reason to even suspect it might be true. > the one message where I got sloppy and referenced only solar panel[sic] with a passing reference to 'rare earth minerals' It wasn't a passing reference; it accounted for the vast majority (99.9% to 99.99%) of the resource and environmental impact you attribut…

>You may need to store energy to bridge daily intermittency, And the greatest intermittency is nighttime. Happens every day. Chemical batteries are not cost effective even if we had the resources. But sure, continue to just hand wave that off.

I didn't handwave it off. Nobody had mentioned the cost-effectiveness of chemical batteries in the thread so far. I wrote a 1000-word essay about the issue two years ago, exploring the resource ramifications, which I linked from the above comment, and this other 600-word essay here which goes into more details on battery costs and expected internal rate of return on batteries under different incentive schemes: https://dercuano.github.io/notes/energy-storage-efficiency.h...

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive my nitpick but power generation doesn't generate electrons it pushes existing ones around, very slowly. Highly recommend http://amasci.com/miscon/whatis.html to anyone interested in discovering how inconsistently electrical concepts are defined and taught.

I don't think you are correct. For electricity to propagate at near light speed, electrons will have to move at near light speed, if only for a short time. Or to be a little more precise, shape changes in the electron wavefunction will need to propagate at near light speed. I think we can do this to electrons because their mass is so low. This only really applies when a circuit is opened or closed however. Once a cir…

No, he is correct, its the wave that propagates at a fraction of the speed of light (depending on the conductor). The electrons themselves don't move very fast.

"An electron travels at a speed of about 1 cm/sec. " (in copper) per: https://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=2916283&seq...

This should be taught in a basic AP physics class in HS (where i initially heard it). I vaguely remember doing some of these calculations in my physics for engineers class as a first year engineering student too.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#526
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 0.5% of the US needs to be covered in solar panels to meet the US's current energy requirements (about the size of the Mojave desert). About the size of New Mexico needs to be covered to meet the whole world's energy consumption. In the grand scale of things, and considering how much sunny, arid desert land there is in the world (and without even thinking of floating solar farms) that's really not a lot...

It also needs to be sunny 24 hours a day. Solar requires storage. Batteries are non-renewable.

> Batteries are non-renewable.

In what sense do you mean this? As we gain a critical mass of batteries at end of life, we are now able to start recycling them:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/batteries-storage/lithiumio...

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#527
post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are vastly overstating the mineral requirements. Wind power can share land with other uses. There is a staggering amount of land out there that's not suitable for even grazing but will support utility scale solar.

>There is a staggering amount of land out there that's not suitable for even grazing but will support utility scale solar. yes, but how much of that land is also near where the energy is needed?? Transmission loss is a thing. Also how are you handling the whole "sun doesn't shine at night" thing? We still have no economical ways of storing vast quantities of electrical energy.

Long distance power transmission is actually quite efficient, particularly using modern high voltage DC. We totally understand how to move power across continents, and in fact are doing that right this moment globally. The technology is solid enough people are looking seriously at intercontinental power shifting now too.

Cost of storage has been falling dramatically. Lazard has slide decks that summarize the economics as levelized costs. I'd suggest browsing through them, as you've gotten the wrong impression of the real economics. We're crossing the threshold where renewables + storage is economically viable. That's not to say it'll be trivial to scale up the industry, but it's not the economic impossibility you're assuming.

Note that there's a very intense and effective PR campaign around this stuff intended to convince you that the economics are impossible.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#528
post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Solar panels are not recyclable. Neither are wind mills I don’t understand why you say that. If a wind mill blade is made out of aluminium, it can be recycled as aluminium after it has been decommissioned. It being used in a high tech device doesn’t change that fact. Same if solar cells are primarily made out of glass and silicon, both could be recycled into anything else that requires glass or silicon. I also don’…

The materials in a solar panel are recyclable, but practically speaking it’s extremely difficult since they’re epoxied together. There’s also the issue of heavy metal content like cadmium.

My point with the above comment was that pointing to the unsustainability of renewable infrastructure is disingenuous, especially if you are not doing the same with nuclear infrastructure. Both are unsustainable currently, both can be made sustainable, arguable renewables even more so.

GP was complaining about the fact nuclear would be a better overall option because of sustainability issues that renewables have. I believe GP was being disingenuous and says so in bad faith. The fact is that we as a species have a terrible track record in unsustainable behavior. Renewables are not exempt from this. We can (and should) do better (including subsidizing e-waste recycling; putting tariffs on—or taxing—new aluminum that underbids recycled; etc.).

Not doing renewables because of this unsustainable track record is just plain silly, and arguing for such is probably done in bad faith, especially if nuclear is not held to the same standards.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#529
post #507
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why people are screaming at each other to do the math, or referring to others who have hypothetically done the math, or accusing each other of lying, or claiming that solar panels are made out of rare earth elements (!!), instead of just doing the math themselves here in the comments. It's almost as if they're more interested in being vicious to one another than in finding out the truth. World mark…

Transmission loss? How are you getting the power generated from "empty" land to where it's actually needed?

The easiest way is to distribute that Thailand-sized area of solar panels around the globe, close to the point of use. This won't help Germany, which will still need either 2000-km-long transmission lines from Extremoduro or Algeria or something, or a lot more 10%-capacity-factor solar panels than they already have, but for electrical power in most of the world, photovoltaic power tends to decrease transmission losses (which are already included in the world marketed energy consumption numbers) rather than increase them. That's because thermal electric power plants tend to be in the 100MW–10GW range where they're most cost-efficient, while PV generation can be economically scaled down to 0.3 kilowatt at present.

Indeed, if the prices of modules and power electronics keep dropping as they have been, there's a point where it becomes uneconomic for most energy users to pay for offsite generation, transmission, distribution, and billing; around 02013 there was a lot of talk about the risk of a "utility death spiral" as more and more grid users deserted the grid for their own private PV farms, leaving the remaining grid users (steel mills, diamond foundries, Bitcoin mines, and the like) to pay higher and higher prices to maintain the stranded infrastructure. So far this has not materialized and probably will not.

However, of those 18 terawatts, about a third are transport fuels, mostly gasoline for cars and diesel for land shipping, but also passenger trains, bunker fuel for cargo ships, and jet fuel for airliners and air shipping. Although ships can plausibly tow their own PV rafts, the others will probably be the last strongholds of fossil fuels due to the low efficiencies of electrolysis (typically around 60%) and the Fischer–Tropsch process (typically 50%), which adds up to "transmission losses" of around 70%, relative to how they're measured in the IEA's report today. And if you're doing this to power your Antarctic research base's electrical needs, you lose another 60% (total losses: 88%) to Carnot.

The good news there, though, is that the electrical part of the equation gets a "Carnot boost": a kilojoule of coal or gas burned to generate electricity only yields 400 J of electrical energy. So we only need 400 W of PV generation to replace each kilowatt of coal mining for electricity!

Okay, I've answered three of your questions. Now it's your turn. How much are current transmission losses typically, and in maximal and minimal cases? How are they affected by transmission-line distance, and how much does the step-up and step-down equipment cost for different voltages? How does HVDC help? Are there better alternatives to water electrolysis followed by Fischer–Tropsch? How does the global distribution of current human energy use relate to the distribution of solar resource?

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#530
post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently you haven't done the math on this, but I did: https://dercuano.github.io/notes/lithium-supplies.html Summary of conclusions: It seems likely that known concentrated lithium deposits will not be sufficient to permit the transition to solar over the next decade or two, but there is plenty of lithium in seawater and other, less-concentrated deposits to permit such a transition. New extraction technologies wil…

If we're talking about grid storage, there are many other chemistries with lower specific energy that will not run into resource constraints. For example, sodium may not be a drop in replacement for lithium, but it's far more abundant and makes decent batteries too: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsenergylett.0c02181 Then there are entire classes of flow batteries that have not been industrialized yet, that have a…

That's interesting! I had no idea about sodium batteries! Thank you!

Nickel-iron and lead-acid batteries have a lot of historical use for grid-backup applications, and lead-acid ones are still cheaper than lithium, but I don't think the resources are there to scale to an all-solar civilization. Nickel-iron batteries might be cheaper (the resources are a lot more abundant) but nobody sells them anymore I think?

There are whole classes of all kinds of energy sources that haven't been industrialized yet, including, to a great extent, nuclear energy. EGS comes to mind. The critical thing about PV is that it's crossed the chasm to mass production and the ensuing price drops. So I think it's crucial that current lithium production won't scale to the needs of an all-solar grid — but that oceanic extraction could.

If you liked this thread, you might also enjoy https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26219000

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