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I Violated a Code of Conduct

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Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#521

Post by rjknight »

wruza wrote: post #515

CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Any set of strict/influential laws should be supported by a proper set of institutions like courts, lawyers, arbitration, judging practice. When you have rules and just a mob, you get nothing but a mob rule of power-hungry people. Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurator…

I think this is a valid point. A system of justice isn't just a set of rules. To be effective, it also requires a trustworthy process to determine whether the rules were correctly decided and published, whether a given individual's conduct violates the rules, and what, if any, punishment there should be.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#522

Post by golergka »

I can't even count the number of times it was predicted that Code of Conducts would just be used as a tool for internal politics. Of course, all CoC opponents were painted as racists and sexists, and their arguments discarded.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#523

Post by chunkyfunky »

wruza wrote: post #515

CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Any set of strict/influential laws should be supported by a proper set of institutions like courts, lawyers, arbitration, judging practice. When you have rules and just a mob, you get nothing but a mob rule of power-hungry people. Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurator…

"After they told me of the reports and their finding that I had violated the code of conduct, they asked if I had anything to say."

There really is only ever one thing to say in a situation like this, and it is "Yes, I refuse to participate any further in this farce; good day!" and then hang up. Personally I would not have been so polite :)

CoC committees are breeding grounds for idiots who think you can legislate for common sense and basic decency; and in my book that is a bridge that's worth burning every time.

I really hope the author finds some peace in all this, nobody deserves to be treated they way they have. And I hope that others who have found - and will in future find - themselves in this same situation, will have the courage to stand up to this kind of bullying by refusing to engage.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#524

Post by ScottBurson »

paganel wrote: post #423
ScottBurson wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it seems to me that you're not the sort of person who should be on such a phone call, unless you can get this habit under control.

> unless you can get this habit under control. The OP is not alone in that, I also chuckle/grin when under huge stress (it sometimes also happened when I heard about the very bad health condition of people really close to me), and saying that "one should get this habit under control" is like saying to depressed people just to smile so that they won't be depressed anymore (and it's also like calling depression just a…

Calling someone and telling them you've found them to have violated a rule, and that there would therefore be certain consequences, is not an easy task, nor one that most people should be expected to do well. There's no shame in not being good at it.

NumFOCUS should think about this. Someone in Jeremy's position could decide to sue them. They should think carefully about how these decisions are to be communicated to the putative violator and who should do it.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#525

Post by KnobbleMcKnees »

blub wrote: post #416
ALittleLight wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rebuilt? Why? Do you read the code of conduct when you attend a conference? Personally, I haven't even read the code of conduct for my job, and certainly wouldn't read one if I was speaking at or attending a conference. The CoCs are completely unnecessary and, as shown in this example, arbitrarily enforced. In the blog post I read that their CoC prohibits threats and assaults. Consider how silly that is. If someone's…

They're useless for their stated purpose, but they're quite useful for their real purpose: as a punishment tool used by social justice sadists which are parasitizing projects conferences and organizations.

This is the saddest part of all; not because of the toxic influence of these bad actors, but because it detracts from actual issues of discrimination and misconduct.

What does anyone think happens when an organizer breaks the code of conduct? I can write the list of actions here:

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#526

Post by fdw »

ALittleLight wrote: post #358
robbyoconnor wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this isn't a case of a codes of conduct being universally bad, but rather a case of one instance of it being bad. A GOOD code of conduct will be specific and lay out what is acceptable without vagueness.

Most people know what is or isn't acceptable through common sense. A racist or sexual assaulter isn't going to think "Wait, does this violate the code of conduct?" Every conference doesn't need to go to the trouble of working out some flawless unambiguous list of rules and every attendee doesn't need to read them. If someone is causing a problem eject, ban, or call the police. No CoC needed.

While I agree that a CoC should be no surprise to anyone with common sense, it still makes sense to me to have them:

First, there are people without common sense. Sooner or later someone will not adhere to the unwritten rules and ask "Who's going to stop me?". Even if you can eject/ban them, it will be quite a mess, as you now seem to enforce completely intransparent and artificial rules. People will (rightly) ask you to state the rules before you enforce them. Even if your rules are completely obvious to you and all the people in your peer group, they won't be to everyone.

On the other hand, a CoC signals to potential participants that you take these things seriously. Look at it from the point of view of someone who is used to sexist/racist/otherwise discriminating comments: If you see that a conference has a CoC, that means that they know of your problem and are prepared to combat it. This is more a more inviting conference and it will put you more at ease, because you can feel safer. Without a CoC, people will not attend because they're just tired of this.

So, yes, CoC should be unnecessary because we all know how to behave. Ideally, their content is suprising to no one. But experience shows that not everybody does, or that they in good faith behave in ways that are not acceptable to other people. With a CoC, you make it clear beforehand that "these are the rules", so everyone's on the same page, and you show that you mean it.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#527

Post by c06n »

I feel bad for the guy, but this is classic "Leopards ate my face". Kafka wrote "Der Process" (The trial) 100 years ago. People have warned in abundance that Codes of Conduct will lead to Der Process-like situations, and here we are.

Cancelling others is "facing consequences". Cancelling you is unfair and a great injustice. Is it maybe possible that others who have been cancelled did, in fact, not just face consequences, but were treated just as unfair as you?

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#528

Post by magicalhippo »

csnover wrote: post #380
newscracker wrote: post #184

After reading the entire post, I feel really bad for him, and I hope he gets the time off and the support necessary to recover from this incident. I also feel quite angry with how he has been treated. So please let me vent it out here as politely as I’m able to. I can imagine something like this or worse happening on social media groups, but an ostentatious “committee” that listens only to one side and never gives th…

> And the chuckling in the call when someone has already said they’re not in a proper emotional state is just bullying. I can’t speak to who this person was or why they did this, but I did just want to mention that there is at least one good faith explanation that isn’t straight up bullying. When I am in uncomfortable situations, I have a nervous chuckle. If I were in this call, giving this feedback to this person, I…

My aunt had a nervous laughter. I learned that when I was five, and I had just got a bike and trying to learn how to ride it.

My aunt was visiting and I wanted to show off, lost control and hit the asphalt with quite some speed. Hands and knee were all scratched up and hurt like hell and there she was, standing, laughing out loud. I recall thinking how mean that was.

While cleaning my wounds my mom explained the situation, and I've tried to keep this in mind whenever facing "inexplicable" reactions.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#529

Post by tinus_hn »

wruza wrote: post #515

CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Any set of strict/influential laws should be supported by a proper set of institutions like courts, lawyers, arbitration, judging practice. When you have rules and just a mob, you get nothing but a mob rule of power-hungry people. Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurator…

People who don’t have issues don’t speak up. So only the people who are offended, and some people are easily offended, speak up and have a voice.

This whole thing seems reasonable until you step onto someone’s toe and a bunch of drama emerges.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#530

Post by NamTaf »

lloydatkinson wrote: post #507
jhanschoo wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that you have this takeaway when one of the reasons the author gives for making such a post is to reaffirm the value of a CoC. Would you elaborate on why you think a CoC and corresponding enforcement in the way the author describes is either undesirable or impossible?

Simply put, "cancelling" (which is already a dumb concept) someone and refusing to allow them to speak at a conference simply because they said someone else's opinion was wrong is absurd. Add on top taking a week to let them know why.

That's still a criticism of this CoC (insofar as it allowed a malicious party to wield it to achieve this outcome), not CoCs in general.

Or do you disagree with the premise that there can exist a CoC that is crafted such as to not allow this sort of carte-blanche bad decisionmaking?

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