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Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

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Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#521
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't think this could still be true but apparently you are correct [1]. Wow. That being said, there are factors to contribute to this: - Essentially zero population growth [2] - A government and a system that propped up an insolvent banking system that likely extended the downturn significantly [3] - A massive asset bubble that we really haven't seen the likes of, not even in the subprime era. [1]: https://www.ma…

Yep, over half of GDP growth is tied to population growth. If 2% of humanity is about to die...

I'm wondering if what 2% dies matters. This disease is mostly going to kill people past their prime working years. There are going to be tons of sociological changes. Just speculating here:

- Social security could have it's date of insolvency extended. It's currently predicted to be insolvent by 2037. Most pension programs in the world will be relieved of pressure if many of those over 60 years of age die. Many states with pension crises may delay those crises many years.

- we may see the largest wealth transfer in history in a short period of time as many older folks die and leave their heirs with whatever wealth they have that they were unable to consume in retirement.

- The economy will "lose" the spending power of this older generation, but that spending power will be transferred to a younger generation. Except for what the government steals via a death tax, this should be net zero in terms of money spent in the economy. What will change is what the money is being spent on.

- Many homes may go on the market as these older folks that own much of the housing stock pass away. Those inheriting the homes will sell or rent. In the case of multiple children sharing the inheritance, homes will be put on the market as those children want their liquid share now.

- Those in their prime productive years should carry on, so hopefully productivity as measured by GDP remains more stable than if this disease killed more people in their prime working years.

- What's most worrying is the people this disease kill between 40 and 65 years of age, since their is a lot of accumulated wisdom, knowledge and expertise in that cohort that is still being actively contributed to society through work and other forms of productive engagement.

If this really does take out 2% and that 2% is largely isolated to those over 60 years of age, we're going to be living in very very interesting times.

My biggest concern is losing a lot of that voting block as older voters often serve as a check against naive ideas that younger voters have such as wanting to try socialist policies wholesale at scale at the federal level instead of experimenting with those ideas in the safe confines of state or local municipalities to determine if they are actually workable ideas.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#522
post #470
post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, it's also possible that the CV will recede in the summer, and that will very likely make the markets bounce back. To quote Carl Sagan, prophecy is a lost art.

The doubling rate is 3 days. Either we will be in a 3 month long quarantine, or in three months the infection rate will be slowing because there's no one left to infect.

That’s only true under current conditions. If we move to social distancing themselves the doubling rate may slow down significantly, which would actually increase the time to burnout.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#523
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To those who believe that all markets are rational and efficient, that interventions cause more harm than good, y, an enforced halt seems to be anti-capitalist. But we are not rational actors. We can get into panics. Panics can stir more panic. Forced breaks allow for the market to reassess data for a few minutes without fear of loss for not acting immediately.

You would think, by the same arguments, that the stock market could always just trade at 15-minute intervals. Why not? But people go crazy when researchers (e.g. Eric Budish at U. Chicago) suggest lowering the frequency to milliseconds, let alone seconds or minutes.

There are different, additional, objections to that. For example, it would make life rather difficult for market makers, which would mean a lot of the liquidity would dry up, which means the spread would widen out, which means trading would be more expensive.

I think there is scope for designing market mechanisms which have the volatility-reduction effects of periodic auctions, but which still allow market makers to hedge. I hope people are working on those.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#524
post #315

So, children of summer (there are many here who have only known the longest bull market in the last century), let me give you some free advice. If you're looking at this and wondering when to get in, to bargain hunt essentially, and you're asking yourself questions like "today? next week?", you need to step back and think again. Some points to consider: - If your time horizon is 10+ years out probably none of this ma…

as usual, the financial advice is "who knows what to do good luck"

YOLO options. This is the way.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The breakers were originally implemented as a response to Black Monday in 87, which was before algorithms were so dominant, but it happens that humans are really good at panicking and acting irrationally too.

Somebody said above that it was due to the 29 crash, which one is right?

1987.

From the 1988 "Report of the Presidential Task Force on Market Mechanisms : submitted to The President of the United States, The Secretary of the Treasury, and The Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board":

---

Our understanding of these events leads directly to our recommendations. To help prevent a repetition of the events of mid-October and to provide an effective and coordinated response in the face of market disorder, we recommend that:

• One agency should coordinate the few, but critical, regulatory issues which have an impact across the related market segments and throughout the financial system.

• Clearing systems should be unified to reduce financial risk.

• Margins should be made consistent to control speculation and financial leverage.

• Circuit breaker mechanisms (such as price limits and coordinated trading halts) should be formulated and implemented to protect the market system.

• Information systems should be established to monitor transactions and conditions in related markets.

https://archive.org/details/reportofpresiden01unit/mode/2up

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#526
post #465
post #315

So, children of summer (there are many here who have only known the longest bull market in the last century), let me give you some free advice. If you're looking at this and wondering when to get in, to bargain hunt essentially, and you're asking yourself questions like "today? next week?", you need to step back and think again. Some points to consider: - If your time horizon is 10+ years out probably none of this ma…

When China put 10% of the worlds population on travel restrictions, a put on SPY with a strike of 300 expiring this Friday was 29 cents. The optimism is frankly unbelievable.

That’s not optimism. That’s options pricing driven by implied volatility and the current price.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2% of humanity is absolutely, in no way, shape or form about to die. The Korean numbers are approaching 0.5% case fatality rate, and those numbers continue to fall. It's about the same as the flu, and no, the flu isn't killing 2% of humanity either. Y'all need to settle down and get back to work.

There is no way to state with certainty what you’ve said or the opposite. It is prudent of everyone to exercise caution and avoid panic that increases the potential for harm. Being dismissive is just a destructive as being overprotective.

Sure there is: the data.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#528
post #315

So, children of summer (there are many here who have only known the longest bull market in the last century), let me give you some free advice. If you're looking at this and wondering when to get in, to bargain hunt essentially, and you're asking yourself questions like "today? next week?", you need to step back and think again. Some points to consider: - If your time horizon is 10+ years out probably none of this ma…

Honestly, spring just happens to be the season when I contribute to my Roth IRA, so hey, I guess this year I get my index funds at a low per-share price. Thanks log-normal random walk!

Before you get too excited about Spring essentially solving this problem, I present to you the history of the Spanish Flu [1].

> Reported cases of Spanish flu dropped off over the summer of 1918, and there was hope at the beginning of August that the virus had run its course. In retrospect, it was only the calm before the storm. Somewhere in Europe, a mutated strain of the Spanish flu virus had emerged that had the power to kill a perfectly healthy young man or woman within 24 hours of showing the first signs of infection.

[1]: https://www.history.com/news/spanish-flu-second-wave-resurge...

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#529
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What fraction of your account value would you have lost if those puts expired (i.e. if the market had not declined)?

Well they wouldn't have expired until 4/17, so even if the market didn't go down today or went up it wouldn't have dropped anywhere close to $0.

I hadn't checked VIX for a few weeks. As I write this, it's trading at 54.79. That's insane. It's usually in the high teens to low twenties.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#530
post #342
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just buy index decade after decade... this of course does not work if you attempt to beat the index or have timespan that is short.

The index has become a bubble in of itself. It's also not as diversified as you would think when Microsoft makes up 5-6% of the S&P and over 10% of Nasdaq.

So then purchase and overweight small and mid-caps and international indexes if you think that SPY is top heavy. You don't need to deviate from index investing just because a part of the index is outperforming the rest. Choose an allocation, stick to it, rebalance when you hit some threshold.
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