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We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

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Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#521

Post by jeffnappi »

smt88 wrote: post #317
jeffnappi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One reason micromobility has higher bandwidth is that cars typically only have a single occupant, yet occupy the space of perhaps 5 bikes.

That makes sense, but I took the original claim to mean what's possible . So it seems like we're comparing apples-to-oranges: The reality of cars (single occupant) is lower-bandwidth than the fantasy of bikes (lots of bikes traveling like a school of fish). I agree with that. But if you compare the reality of both, cars are still massively higher throughput in the US. And if you compare the fantasy of both (fully-loa…

Yep, if we can get self driving cars and people are actually willing to share that space with strangers it will be a big win for transportation efficiency.

However at the same time we should be investing in density and figuring out ways to make that work. Urban sprawl is massively innefficient by it's nature.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#522

Post by maxerickson »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #322
mcv wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think cycling is inherently more a local thing than cars. Nobody needs interstate or international bicycle paths, because nobody cycles that far. So it makes sense that the interest is more local, and maybe that's also why smaller countries like Denmark and Netherland are more successful at it. Bicycle infrastructure is primarily about towns and cities. So if you want this big push, you have to do it at the city le…

> Nobody needs interstate or international bicycle paths, because nobody cycles that far. Yes, they do. There is a whole series of trans-Europe routes, the Eurovelo network, and some of them are downright crowded with whole families in the summer. I do some cycling every summer in Serbia and Bulgaria and my route sometimes intersects the Eurovelo 6. It is often a crap shoot if I am going to find accommodation in the…

In much of the US, the longer distance recreational bike paths are more developed than local infrastructure.

One driver of that is rail trails.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#523

Post by vinay427 »

flukus wrote: post #519
jnty wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you drive into the medieval centre of a city to do a large supermarket shop if you can drive to an out-of-town one already? Studies show that - particularly in Europe - most people are already walking to these shops everywhere. The 'weekly shop' is not really a thing that inner-city dwellers tend to do that often - they either rely on deliveries (cheap and efficient due to density) or smaller shops througho…

> The 'weekly shop' is not really a thing that inner-city dwellers tend to do that often Something I wish the holier than though types thought of when they banned plastic bags here. No I can't just keep my reusable bags in the back of my SUV so I have them when I go shopping.

Where have plastic bags been banned? Everywhere I've seen these policies in place, there has just been a mandatory charge added for receiving a bag. This seems reasonable enough to me even without waste or environmental considerations.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#524

Post by vinay427 »

brnt wrote: post #486
ivanhoe wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's still not like in States, but mega-markets are taking over in Europe too, at least in my corner. Cities are pedestrian friendly, but pedestrian-only zones are rare. If you can't get to the restaurant/shop by car and it's not really close to you, it's quite likely that you'll go somewhere else. People get the wrong idea because in summer when they visit it looks different, partially because of the nicer wea…

After in 1973 the first such hypermarket opened up in NL, laws were quickly enacted to prevent it from ever happening again. Precisely because it was feared cars would become necessities and city centres would be out-competed. That single location remains to this day the only hypermarket in the Netherlands [1]. [1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weidewinkel

I don't understand why city centers would be outcompeted, and this sort of legislation seems rather heavy-handed not just from an American perspective. In the country I live in, the same grocery chains have mostly smaller (with some larger) stores in urban centers and mostly larger (but less frequent) stores outside these areas. I can get most common items at any of the stores near me, and if looking for a less common item I can go to a larger store in my city which will almost always have it. This means that I'm connected by public transit to both small and large stores, neither of which need cars or massive parking lots.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#525

Post by flukus »

vinay427 wrote: post #523
flukus wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 'weekly shop' is not really a thing that inner-city dwellers tend to do that often Something I wish the holier than though types thought of when they banned plastic bags here. No I can't just keep my reusable bags in the back of my SUV so I have them when I go shopping.

Where have plastic bags been banned? Everywhere I've seen these policies in place, there has just been a mandatory charge added for receiving a bag. This seems reasonable enough to me even without waste or environmental considerations.

Well not banned, but they added a 15c charge for thicker ones, so now I spend more and waste more plastic than I was previously. The thicker bigger ones and the smaller thinner ones that used to be free got reused as garbage bags nearly 1 to 1.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#526

Post by Jedi72 »

Vrondi wrote: post #431
Freak_NL wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a matter of risk assessment. The chance of a healthy adult cycling in the Netherlands getting a head injury that would have been prevent by a helmet are so incredibly low, that making it a requirement would have a detrimental effect on the collective health of Dutch society due to slightly lower uptake in cycling. For elderly and young children a helmet may make sense, due to the significantly higher risk of suc…

Such sanity simply doesn't exist in the over-protective culture of the USA.

In Texas even motorcyclists dont require helmets by law (insanity IMHO).

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#527

Post by kruczek »

panda88888 wrote: post #115
kruczek wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now imagine how many bikes you could fit on a two lane road vs how many cars No need to imagine: http://lh3.ggpht.com/_9F9_RUESS2E/S7tbclwxiPI/AAAAAAAACmw/uI...

I feel the picture is misleading. First, the angle for cars results in a closer, more zoomed in picture than for the bus and bike. Second, it assumes 1 occupant per car, but a full bus. More likely, each car will probably average more than 1 occupant, and buses will probably be less than half full, if not 25%.

> First, the angle for cars results in a closer, more zoomed in picture than for the bus and bike.

That's true, but I don't think it makes much of a difference. I couldn't fix the angle, but here's the same picture with second and third images also zoomed in similarily: https://imgur.com/a/2GMcSlE

> Second, it assumes 1 occupant per car, but a full bus. More likely, each car will probably average more than 1 occupant, and buses will probably be less than half full, if not 25%.

Actually, below is an example for a few countries. Average number of persons in a car seem to be decreasing with 1.8 in the 80s, down to around 1.4 in 2005. At the same time average seat occupancy for buses seem to be around 70%. This matches what I observe everyday - vast majority of cars has only the driver inside.

https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/occupancy...

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#528

Post by clarry »

kalenx wrote: post #438
gpm wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> bikes accelerate 0-10 faster than anything else As a cyclist, I don't believe this claim for a second. When a car starts moving at the same time as me, it's faster than me from the start. Which makes sense, it has more horse power per unit mass. Often I do start moving first, because I think I'm less likely to get right hooked if I do so. But that's a result of paying attention and having my for on the "accelerator…

The relevant metric is the torque at low (or 0) RPM, not the (horse) power. I do agree that a good electric car may start faster than a cyclist, however.

Dunno, my ICE idles at 900 RPM and I tend to give it a bit of gas as I start going. I don't think my feet could put out anywhere near as much torque.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#529

Post by kruczek »

treerock wrote: post #140
panda88888 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the picture is misleading. First, the angle for cars results in a closer, more zoomed in picture than for the bus and bike. Second, it assumes 1 occupant per car, but a full bus. More likely, each car will probably average more than 1 occupant, and buses will probably be less than half full, if not 25%.

Yeah I wish I could find a better picture bit this gives a sense of Edinburgh centre. https://www.nfpplanning.com/uploads/2/4/0/5/24056719/taxi-tr... Queues of buses, and during the day they will often only have one or two passenger. Plus car drivers are advised to give a bike the same room as a car, so on mixed use roads a bike effectively takes up the same space as a car.

> Plus car drivers are advised to give a bike the same room as a car, so on mixed use roads a bike effectively takes up the same space as a car.

Yes, that is one case. On the other hand:

1. The fact that such advices are given doesn't mean they are followed. I also heard that car drivers are supposed to leave at least 1 meter of space between themselves and a bike when overtaking said bike. In my experience that happens only on an empty wide road; otherwise car drivers won't hesitate to overtake as close as possible.

2. In case of bike lanes, bikes obviously do take much less space, both when driving and when queuing.

3. Even in case of mixed road, there may be multiple bikes which do not need to stay so far away from each other.

4. Also on mixed road, when queuing together with cars, bikes will usually position themselves alongside cars, therefore effectively taking zero space in the queue.

5. Finally consider also requirements for parking. A single car parking space could probably fit 10 bikes.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#530

Post by brnt »

vinay427 wrote: post #524
brnt wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After in 1973 the first such hypermarket opened up in NL, laws were quickly enacted to prevent it from ever happening again. Precisely because it was feared cars would become necessities and city centres would be out-competed. That single location remains to this day the only hypermarket in the Netherlands [1]. [1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weidewinkel

I don't understand why city centers would be outcompeted, and this sort of legislation seems rather heavy-handed not just from an American perspective. In the country I live in, the same grocery chains have mostly smaller (with some larger) stores in urban centers and mostly larger (but less frequent) stores outside these areas. I can get most common items at any of the stores near me, and if looking for a less commo…

Well, it largely succeeded in preventing shops moving out from city centres in NL, and can be presumed to have encouraged bike usage over car usage, as inner city shops are more likely to be reachable by bike.
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