Women: Learn to Program This Summer • Hacker News Board

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#521

Post by europsucks » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 8:24 AM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #281

pacala wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Diverse candidates get two attempts to pass the technical phone interview, non diverse get one. These rhyme with soviet era policies circa 1950-1960 in Eastern Europe. At universities, there was an admission exam for 'healthy origin' people for the majority of the spots, and then another exam where everybody, including those failing the first time, could compete for the scraps. We all know how that turned out econo…

To be fair, the tech companies are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The media has been heavily pushing the narrative that women are underrepresented at these tech companies - and they are compared to the general population. But I've seen plenty of stories, even from reputable sources like the NYT, criticizing tech companies for only hiring 20-25% women while failing to mention that this is exactly in line with…

Maybe tech companies shouldn't let journalists tell them how to run their companies.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#522

Post by Udik » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 8:26 AM UTC

ajross wrote: post #251

DBYCZ wrote: post #246

Anyone who argues that there should be "More women in tech" needs to go visit a medical college. Completely filled with super smart women interested in science. If STEM women found Coding as interesting as they did Medicine (which is arguably more competitive and prestigious), we wouldn't have any shortage of women writing code. There is nothing wrong with either way, just let people do what they like to do.

What's the evidence that women aren't coding because they aren't "interested"? If you want to make that argument, don't you need to go and refute all the anecdotal evidence that women aren't entering tech careers because they don't feel welcome? I cite as evidence the fact that women in med schools have not, in fact, always been well represented and that the same kind of rhetoric about their "interests" was used to e…

> If you want to make that argument, don't you need to go and refute all the anecdotal evidence

Ha. Anecdotal evidence? I thought we had better than that (especially when talking about stuff such as other people's subtle, unconscious biases, as judged by someone who has had a job application accepted or rejected..)

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#523

Post by europsucks » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 8:29 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #393

pathseeker wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If the industry is systematically unfavorable to women It's not. The CS graduation ratio is just as bad.

> The CS graduation ratio is just as bad. If the industry were either actually or even merely perceived as systematically unfavorable to women, a natural consequence would be women being less likely to pursue education focussed on the field in preference to other fields that were less unfavorable.

There are many other factors that can come into play. It is simply incorrect to draw the conclusions you do.

One example is earning prospects, which might matter more for men than for women. Personally, I was torn between studying maths and film making, for example. I decided to go for maths because of the better money making prospects (I thought), thinking I could still go into film making later.

If you don't worry about income prospects, maybe you are more likely to choose English literature of the 16th century over engineering.

Just one example.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#524

Post by europsucks » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 8:30 AM UTC

kyle-rb wrote: post #386

dragonwriter wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I've seen plenty of stories, even from reputable sources like the NYT, criticizing tech companies for only hiring 20-25% women while failing to mention that this is exactly in line with the percentages of tech workers that are women. If the industry is systematically unfavorable to women, hiring at the same percentage as the industry as a whole (which is what matching the “percentage of tech workers that are wo…

I don't think the person you're replying to is criticizing the industry though. From what I can tell, they're saying it's not the industry's fault that it lacks women. That's how I see it anyway: mainly based on the fact that women make up only around 20% of CS majors, I don't think the issue lies in the hiring practices of most tech companies.

If hiring was the issue, there would have to be a pool of IT women who can't find a job. I don't think such a pool exists.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#525

Post by wsy » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 8:31 AM UTC

Grustaf wrote: post #460

wsy wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm working in tech as a man, and spend more than half of my work time in talking to people. Actually, the higher you go up in your career, the more you will spend time interacting with people, and the less with things. So should we aim to keep male coders, and foster female tech managers, because that fits the biological tendencies? I definitely would like to see more male kindergarten teachers, because the fact tha…

I don’t think we should “aim” to do anythinf, that’s the whole point. We should just trust grown up educated people to make their own choices. Even women!

Ok, then let me ask differently: if upper management in all companies were mostly women, and they would justify this fact with the argument that they are naturally better with people, would it be ok for you if these women would prefer other women for open manager positions?

Nobody argues against letting people make their own choices. This whole discussion is about equal opportunities. And it starts in kindergarten, not with grown-ups

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#526

Post by europsucks » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 8:33 AM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #47

i_am_proteus wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We use inclusive definitions of “women” and “female” and welcome trans women, genderqueer women, and non-binary people who are female-identified. If you are interested in the program, it seems like you could identify yourself as female and apply. Especially if there's no in-person interview. Cynically, if enough [biological males who identify as] men elect to identify as women for this application, the selection te…

This is a great way to get a company to instantly reject you at the interview step if they have one or fired shortly after being hired. Because, you know, most companies look up the profile of candidates on LinkedIn, social media etc. Unless you actually consider yourself transgender, you would quickly be caught and removed just as quickly.

So what attributes would mark somebody as not transgender on LinkedIn and so on? I am genuinely curious?

Unless they have explicitly stated their gender on such sites?

I am degendering my online presence now, just in case I have to present as female in the future.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#527

Post by Grustaf » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 8:33 AM UTC

apta wrote: post #499

krastanov wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I was not very clear in my statements, but to reiterate: yes, we all know these observations about interests are true, but no, we do not know whether they are biological. On the contrary, we have strong evidence that these preferences stem from the way we talk to young boys and girls.

There was a video documentary by someone in Scandinavia where they did experiments on infants, and from a very early age, the differences between male and females start to manifest, even before any sort of social input and differences in treatment. It seems to be biological. Females are more interested in "faces" and the males were more interested in "things". That doesn't mean women are not interested in STEM though…

In the Middle East there is absolutely societal pressure against women, I’m only saying there’s none of that in the West.

I’ve lived in Jordan, one of the freest and most tolerant countries in the region and I could definitely imagine that women would like to avoid atudying with men.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#528

Post by europsucks » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 8:35 AM UTC

QualityReboot wrote: post #174

malvosenior wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You either accept that people can choose their own gender or you don't. People don't get to police the reason someone may identify as female or male. History on social media should have nothing to do with it. Do you think everyone makes this choice at an early age and broadcasts it publicly?

That's not exactly right. As I understand it, you sort of get to choose your gender, but society has to accept your choice. If I declare myself a woman but make no attempt to "live as a woman" as society sees it, I'll appear to be taking advantage of the system, and my choice will be rejected and there will be social consequences. Conversely, if I do appear to be making an honest attempt to be a woman, and you don't…

So they will create a transgender bathroom for you, but before you enter it you have to wonder if society will accept your choice?

I think that is exactly not how it is supposed to work.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#529

Post by black-tea » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 8:57 AM UTC

40acres wrote: post #182

Some of the comments in this thread is a master class of how discrimination and gatekeeping work not just in our industry but in society as a whole. How can we simultaneously be an industry built on free an open source software and yet try to put up walls around our industry when efforts are made to make it more accessible to others? The barriers to programming are being lowered and this is an excellent thing. More d…

What barriers are there? Everyone has access to computers and all of our software is out there on github etc. Women have more opportunities to learn to program than men do. They just don't want to. They don't understand it and don't like it. Get over it.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#530

Post by black-tea » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 9:02 AM UTC

ajross wrote: post #251

DBYCZ wrote: post #246

Anyone who argues that there should be "More women in tech" needs to go visit a medical college. Completely filled with super smart women interested in science. If STEM women found Coding as interesting as they did Medicine (which is arguably more competitive and prestigious), we wouldn't have any shortage of women writing code. There is nothing wrong with either way, just let people do what they like to do.

What's the evidence that women aren't coding because they aren't "interested"? If you want to make that argument, don't you need to go and refute all the anecdotal evidence that women aren't entering tech careers because they don't feel welcome? I cite as evidence the fact that women in med schools have not, in fact, always been well represented and that the same kind of rhetoric about their "interests" was used to e…

> What's the evidence that women aren't coding because they aren't "interested"?

There are fewer women doing coding despite no barriers to entry, more opportunities (like this one) and preferential selection (thanks to people like you).

Just look around you for the evidence. Men spend their free time on hobbies, building things, playing with machines. Women call men boys for doing this. They do not want to do it. They do not understand why men do it.