Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

news.ycombinator.com

521–530 of 968 posts

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#521
Pros: - Level of responsibility and opportunity you can get at an early stage startup WAY outstrips what an established company can typically offer you, especially if you are early career. You might be able to get more money at FAANGM, but your career will not grow as fast. - Because of the above you get to learn skills that generalize (eg. how to deliver value with a product, how to negotiate a partnership, how to make an impact on a P&L). I've seen many folks come in from Big Co. who only know things that are specific to that company. The reason for this is that Big Co. has already figured out how work needs to get done to achieve their business objectives, and everyone who works there gets handed that API. I've seen folks come out of large companies and realize that they hadn't learned fundamental skills around how to generate value. That they had mostly built experience in how to operate in the environment they were in, but didn't translate outside. In startups you have to learn to generate value or the company dies. - You get to make an asymmetric bet. If you're early career your opportunity cost is low but your capture could be high if it works out. - The experience of working on an early stage team really trying to DO something is unparalleled. You won't find anything like it at Big Co. (unless you're lucky enough to get involved in a new product launch, which does happen).

Cons: - You only get one bet at a time. This is as opposed to investors who get a portfolio. But your stake is usually smaller than theirs. So it's REALLY hard to hedge your risk. This is not a worry in your early career, since your alternatives are not great. But it becomes a problem later on. If you don't have personal liquidity, you really can't afford this by your mid-thirties. - Returns are really skewed right now towards founders and investors (who dominate the cap table), and then the first "adult" executives brought in (who may not get the largest equity stakes but tend to be bonused out in cash even in the case of a fire sale, when most employees get nothing). IMO this is why startup recruiting is so hard right now. It's clear to anyone looking closely that the returns are so heavily founder/investor skewed that it makes no sense to join a company at an early stage if you have any other options.

IMO the biggest problem to fix is the lopsided cap tables. Without this it's really hard to attract talent. For most people who are startup focused, the competition is not a high paying job at FAANGM, but them starting their own thing. Here's a possible solution: Companies could start at their inception with 3 classes of shares instead of 2- preferred (for investors), 10x voting common (for founders), and 1x voting common (for employees). You could then allocate a MUCH flatter cap table so that you can make meaningful equity offers to attract folks to the early team who would otherwise have chosen to found a company themselves, but you don't run into the control issues you would otherwise run into due to diluting the founders stakes. There are certainly other solutions, but solving this problem is what I would advocate for- ie. make it more rational for someone to choose to work for your company as opposed to starting their own.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#522
post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he’s correct. MSFT pays a lot more in the Bay Area than Seattle because the cost of living is so much lower in Seattle (no state income tax, housing, etc) that they can get away with paying a lot less. My total compensation went up by ~80% going from MSFT to FB (but my housing costs 3x in the Bay Area vs what I had in Boston so it’s not as large an increase as it sounds).

What you're saying is that the difference isn't between companies - MSFT vs FB - but between areas : Seattle vs Bay. I'm mostly aware of pay in the Bay and a few similar areas, and it is largely equivalent at the levels posted here.

I'm not sure why you are trying to dispute my facts when it's clear you have never worked at any of the above companies based on your comments.

Even in Seattle it's well known that FB pays more than MSFT. So your theory about top tech needing to pay top dollar etc, doesn't hold.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The median T5 Google eng does not have 200k base. (It's less than that) and lol bonus is not 200k. Bonus is 15% of base. Not sure where you are pulling your numbers from but Facebook is very similar. Most senior devs at big tech are not making 200k base (more like 150-190k). It is more like top 20% making that base. But base doesn't matter. The money is in the RSUs anyway.

I'm obviously including RSU in the "bonus" portion, in addition to cash. There are also companies who pay these kind of total bonus figures in cash, but in big tech it's typically paid in stocks. I'm pulling these numbers from direct contact with recruiters in these companies, and in some cases job offers. Incidentally, there's an anonymous reply from a Facebook engineer under one of my other comments in this thread.…

So? That's one engineer. I said top 20%. You act like the median engineer is pulling 400k at FB. They aren't.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#524
I did a PhD, so by the end of my 20's, my net worth was approximately zero. If I rolled the dice on a startup, there's a very good chance I'd hit my mid-30's and be in the same place I was financially at 20. Instead, I opted for FANG where I could accumulate as much in a few years as my parents did over their careers.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#525
post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America, they generally don't. It's a mild adjustment at worst. Chicago is the biggest I've seen - $98.5k base vs. $110k base for L3 SWE - but FB doesn't change their comp, Amazon and Microsoft only increase it in the SFBA and NYC (IIRC). In fact, for new grads Amazon pays the exact same TC in Seattle and in Detroit.

Oh cool, didn't realize that. Hopefully London will catch up.

Historically, the money in London has always been in the finance sector. Both large banks and hedge funds.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#526
post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at Google, used to work at Amazon, and had an offer from Microsoft. From my experience, Google/FB pay much more than Amazon and Microsoft if we're talking about total compensation so I think it's a little more rare than what you're saying. I don't think it's that easy to hit L5 either. My teammate is amazing and had like 8+ years at Microsoft before joining Google but was hired as an L4. For most SWEs, L5 woul…

I keep hearing about the FAANG companies and I have to wonder what can I do to make my proactiveness pay off in getting into the running for job interviews? I feel like it's easier to get their attention as a CS student seeking internships than as a self-taught mid-level developer (which I am). I have interviewed on two separate occasions by Amazon, and only contacted by Microsoft (submitted some forms, but they neve…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#527
post #2

Just a few cons.... The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. Equity grants for early…

Not that 400K isn't believable, I don't think it's the norm, but being outside of the Bay Area or the US for that matter, I'll buy it. However there's one other area where startups have failed to evolve, doing a worse job than big companies actually and that's accepting remote employees. Big companies have been doing better because at the very least they are opening offices in multiple countries, whereas most of the…

You can have a great life with 150k in London or Paris. Very very great.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#528
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. I can second this. But it's not just the m…

Duo, where I work, has an unlimited PTO policy. If you take less than 15 days a year, they try hard to encourage you to take more time. It's common to take more than that. I think this policy really depends on the culture where you work.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#529
post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone without a degree, getting an interview at the Big 5 was quite easy. Passing those interviews is another thing entirely but having the right experiences in your resume has been more important in my case.

That's the thing, right now, I don't really have the "right experiences" that's why startups do seem appealing. I have the skills people are looking for but not the resume validation with internships, the right degree, or school. I got an internship at the start of my intensive where I got to work on some fun problems and used my marketing skills too. I think the only other track would be through open source contribu…

Absolutely focus on the problems you've solved, and also the problems you failed to solve after getting deeply involved in them.

They know that you'll have to learn their proprietary technology stacks, which are always both ahead and behind the public stacks they inspired. At some companies they won't ask anything about your resume keywords after the phone screens.

Most Big 5 companies use what's called "Behavioral Interviewing" or "S.T.A.R." to formally assess how you get stuff done, and the technical questions can be answered in almost any language you like. Hell I've given successful answers to Big 5 "tell me about a time when you had to…" questions based on experiences in bicycle manufacturing and nonprofit administration, but it really has to involve ownership if you're straying from the norms.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#530
One giant risk is spending your formative career and life years being subject to the psychologies of young under developed founder(s), artificially granted empowerment to hire and manage employees by VC speculation.

This inexperience is a helpful pre-rec for ideating concepts and building innovative products that create massive value for the markets, but it's a crap shoot with low odds for being an effective manager: These are not people who rose through the ranks in management by demonstrating finesse in motivating groups of people into effectiveness. These types of people don't come into the company until Series B, C if ever.

Furthermore, founders are typically in hiring mode after they have secured financing - which means you only get to know them while they are not under as much pressure. Dealing with founders while they are under the additional pressure of fundraising is when the more vivid colors of personality (and harsher interactions) come out.

Post reply on HN