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China Blocks WhatsApp

nytimes.com

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Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#521

Post by imron »

dreamfactored wrote: post #322
chaostheory wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think there's a tendency for people to overestimate the importance of foreign apps to Chinese consumers Then why take the trouble of blocking something so small and unimportant? ;) > eg., the Chinese tech/online market is so huge it can sustain multiple competitors of its own in each sector Doesn't China have bigger aspirations than just the mainland? People are missing the bigger point. I'm not talking about the…

1. These are foreign-owned infrastructure platforms and China is protective about its markets. Foreigners can't set up businesses of any kind, let alone infrastructure. 2. You seem to assume the bulk of innovation is going to be happening outside China and that blocking consumer access to Western platforms would somehow inhibit a flow of information to China. I'd disagree on both counts. The Chinese government is act…

> Foreigners can't set up businesses of any kind

Foreigners can set up businesses - see for example, the WFOE [0].

There are restrictions however for certain fields and business activities (infrastructure being one), so while foreigners can't just set up any company, they certainly can set up some companies if they like.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholly_Foreign-Owned_Enterpris...

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#522

Post by simonh »

chaostheory wrote: post #298
westiseast wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a China hawk, but this is what has been happening and what will continue happening unless something massively more drastic than blocking a single minority foreign app happens. I think there's a tendency for people to overestimate the importance of foreign apps to Chinese consumers and to underestimate the Chinese market. It's almost laughable that people think blocking WhatsApp will make any difference to Chinese…

> I think there's a tendency for people to overestimate the importance of foreign apps to Chinese consumers Then why take the trouble of blocking something so small and unimportant? ;) > eg., the Chinese tech/online market is so huge it can sustain multiple competitors of its own in each sector Doesn't China have bigger aspirations than just the mainland? People are missing the bigger point. I'm not talking about the…

>> I think there's a tendency for people to overestimate the importance of foreign apps to Chinese consumers

>Then why take the trouble of blocking something so small and unimportant? ;)

Because they don’t want local activists to be able to use it as a secure channel for communications. WhatsApp really is irrelevant to the market, but access to secure private communications is politically intolerable to the government.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#523

Post by westiseast »

andy_ppp wrote: post #477
uptownfunk wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has little to do with China and innovation. The problem is mostly economical. China probably wants Chinese clones, clones that are incredibly valuable and based in China. All the wealth generated therefrom stays in China. That's it, it's likely an economical manipulation. And frankly, from an economical standpoint, well-played. (Hope I don't get downvoted to hell!)

I don’t understand the lack of reciprocal tariffs introduced by the US or are there some I don’t know of? This is probably the economic equivalent of banning say mobile phones or some other large and important sector.

I think a lot of people feel the same way and it somewhat feeds into the Trump phenomenon.

For years the thinking has been that China is liberalizing, and it will eventually open up and that reciprocal sanctions or tariffs will spark unnecessary protectionism and encourage China to reverse direction.

A lot of people now, after 20-30 years of similar behaviour, believe that China was just gaming the system all along and had no plans to liberalize politically or allow fair competition from foreign business. Trump certainly tapped into that (although I think there's some consensus that punitive tariffs still won't be useful).

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#524

Post by detaro »

Sacho wrote: post #487
chaostheory wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China's not blocking out the sharing of ideas though. Until a few months ago, Andrew Ng worked at Baidu! Ok they are bottlenecking data... As I've already mentioned this is an extremely inefficient way to share data. Sharing data using physically present word of mouth is a lot more expensive and slower than sharing it instantly via an open internet connection.

Is there any indication that scientists predominantly use whatsapp, so this would block innovation? When you say "this is an extremely inefficient way to share data", what do you mean? It's not like China doesn't have its own messengers, and it's not like whatsapp is the only way for people to communicate over the Internet..

You commonly hear scientists complain that they spend a lot of time trying VPNs and working around the latest crop of GFW restrictions, yes. Whatsapp isn't the only limited thing in China.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#525

Post by briandear »

chaostheory wrote: post #40

What the long-term effects will be: China's ruling class further cement their power at the cost of China's innovation and future growth. Interesting and useful things are made when people able share and consume information. e.g. Jack Ma's US visit exposed him to Yahoo. Ma Huateng was clearly inspired by his exposure to ICQ. The list goes on. The same thing happens in the West but it happens a lot more often since the…

The west is nowhere near China enough it comes to censorship and government control. It’s an entirely different league.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#526

Post by chriscappuccio »

eksemplar wrote: post #483
diminish wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Chinese start an economic and cultural expansion which includes PRing their culture, movies, tech, products and building special relationships with developing world in Asia, Africa, south American and Europe they may end up being the globalization leader.

Especially if America keeps electing republicans. As an European America is shitting on me a lot more than China is.

I believe the problem is actually that you keep soiling yourself.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#527

Post by idra »

FabHK wrote: post #198
pangfandang wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The amount of Chinese students that are publishing... That's the thing. These are mostly overseas Chinese working for US/European companies who have no desire to return to China. Talk to any of them, and they're always concerned about the status of their visa and are ecstatic when they become a citizen of a democracy. > China isn't 'Closing up' they are pushing people to use the services Tencent and Baidu are used…

> who have no desire to return to China. My understanding was that increasingly, overseas students are returning to China? (known as "hai gui", sea turtles) See e.g. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2016-03/18/content_239314...

This is because they can't find jobs abroad and can't even speak a foreign language properly after spending their undergrad years in a Chinese international student bubble.

Quoting China Daily is irrelevant because it's a propaganda mouthpiece of the CCP.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#528

Post by gruturo »

nabla9 wrote: post #460
Chaebixi wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the impression that the idea that Chinese culture is somehow more naturally accepting of authoritarianism is part of a propaganda narrative promoted by Chinese authoritarians to protect their own power. > China Takes Aim at Western Ideas > http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/asia/chinas-new-lead... > Communist Party cadres have filled meeting halls around China to hear a somber, secretive warning issued by…

There is no basis to assume that cultures are similar in their power distance. More traditional cultures generally have more power distance. Whose propaganda is the higher acceptance of authority of Americans compared to many European countries? PDI (Power distance index): 81 MEXICO 80 CHINA 68 HONG KONG 58 TAIWAN 54 JAPAN 40 UNITED STATES 31 SWEDEN 18 DENMARK http://www.clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-di…

That was new (for me) and interesting, thanks for posting that. I'm actually surprised to see such a small distance between e.g. Germany and USA, where I observed much more power disparity. Possibly because Germans are, as a whole, "closer" to each other in relative power, but at the same time more accepting of the idea of a constituted authority which rules over them? It might be nice to see these values reported independently (Actually trying to figure out if this is what the other indexes IDV MAS UAI LTO represent).

*Edit Never mind they're different indicators: Power Distance Index | Individualism | Masculinity | Uncertainty Avoidance Index | Long-Term Orientation

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#529

Post by inciampati »

narrator wrote: post #334
dreamfactored wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. These are foreign-owned infrastructure platforms and China is protective about its markets. Foreigners can't set up businesses of any kind, let alone infrastructure. 2. You seem to assume the bulk of innovation is going to be happening outside China and that blocking consumer access to Western platforms would somehow inhibit a flow of information to China. I'd disagree on both counts. The Chinese government is act…

As for sharing knowledge goes, China has sci-hub.io and westerners get to pay $35 a paper.

Why can't westerners use sci hub? Civil disobedience is much more tolerated in the west.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#530

Post by barrkel »

int_19h wrote: post #391
barrkel wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Illiberal regimes are assumed to be kleptocratic. Historically, it's rare to get a succession of just rulers when the temptation to take is there, and there isn't a strong balance of powers. There have been just rulers for a while, but the risk of regression to the mean is ever present. We'll see how things go.

Conversely, there are plenty of democratic liberal regimes that turn up to be kleptocratic - just look at Brazil as one recent example. It's also not clear whether kleptocracy can't be implemented in a way such that it's not a significant detriment to development. Singapore is arguably a kleptocracy, but it's a surprisingly well-managed one.

There's long been a hope that integration into the wider economy prevents war - the idea being that countries that trade deeply won't fight each other. The same logic seems to support the idea that trade can also act as a brake on kleptocracy - since stealing would mean harming foreign investment, damaging the goose that lays the golden eggs.

But I think it's mostly a matter of time and happiness of the population. When things are good, the apple cart stays upright. If they turn grim, everything gets a lot more unstable and the extremes come out. Depending on where it goes, it can get into a feedback cycle - I think this happened in Venezuela.

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