Live data from Hacker News

New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

nytlive.nytimes.com

521–530 of 539 posts

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd be amazed by how vast the range for developer salaries is. I've had employers think that $80k was a reasonable offer for me (when I was making $200k).

It definitely depends on the sector and situation. If someone told me that a dev that some would offer $80K was making $200K I'd say 'Oh. In the financial sector?' Otherwise, what I'm talking about is the fat part of the salary curve...there are always going to be interesting situations at the edge.

I've never worked in the financial sector. The truth is that there's just vast differentiation in how companies treat and pay developers. Some companies basically don't recognize the need for quality and pay all their technical folks <$120k across the board.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies have a range they are willing to pay. Surprisingly, most companies in an area (and domain) usually have very similar ranges. Finding the top has a lot in common with binary searches. I am not sure I understand your second paragraph.

Could your provide a specific example of how to use a binary search to find a salary? A binary search is dependent on boundaries. I don't see how it could be used effectively to find the boundary for a specific employer. Also, the flow chart shown in the article has no similarities to a binary search. The article describes the more reasonable approach: using networking to find out what a domain in an area pays.

You can't do it for a single employer because you only get one test per employer. You do the search across employers, in an area/domain. That gives you a rough idea of the prospect.

Yes, networking and insider information is much better than any of this.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By giving a number first, you're either too high and you won't have an opportunity to sell yourself, you're too low and you've literally already negotiated against yourself, or you're lucky and right at their expectation, which you could have gotten to by simply not giving the first number. And that's why salary is a binary search! https://thehftguy.com/2017/01/23/career-advice-and-salary-ne...

"Basically, you need to perform a binary search. When you get an offer, you know that you can get at least that. Then you repeat the process a bit higher." https://thehftguy.com/2017/01/23/career-advice-and-salary-ne... Except that isn't a binary search.

right, it's the wife search algorithm (fun fact, it's really useful to find a refueling station while on the go)

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It definitely depends on the sector and situation. If someone told me that a dev that some would offer $80K was making $200K I'd say 'Oh. In the financial sector?' Otherwise, what I'm talking about is the fat part of the salary curve...there are always going to be interesting situations at the edge.

I've never worked in the financial sector. The truth is that there's just vast differentiation in how companies treat and pay developers. Some companies basically don't recognize the need for quality and pay all their technical folks <$120k across the board.

I think it is less about recognizing the need for quality and more about not needing nor being able to afford those skills.

It's like mechanics: F1 mechanics make a hell of a lot more than your average wrench turner (for good reason). If you need someone to look at your Corolla you don't need that extra skill and you couldn't afford it even if you wanted it.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never worked in the financial sector. The truth is that there's just vast differentiation in how companies treat and pay developers. Some companies basically don't recognize the need for quality and pay all their technical folks <$120k across the board.

I think it is less about recognizing the need for quality and more about not needing nor being able to afford those skills. It's like mechanics: F1 mechanics make a hell of a lot more than your average wrench turner (for good reason). If you need someone to look at your Corolla you don't need that extra skill and you couldn't afford it even if you wanted it.

You're assuming management competence (ie. that they know what they need).

I've seen way too many companies where they have 3 or 4 developers doing work which 1 competent developer could do, but they're unable to hire or retain competent developers due to poor pay. They'd actually save a lot of money by paying better.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#526
post #432
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case the prior salary is used for anchoring purposes, by the expectation that the new salary should not be too much higher than the old salary. They're basically using it as a means to sanity check and calibrate their own assessment.

My first job paid me $25,000 CAD a year. My next job paid me $90,000 CAD a year. (Investment bank) My next job paid me $160,000 USD a year. (Google) All numbers are all-in comp. All junior dev roles. Should the bank, and Google have offered me $33,000 and $40,000, so that the new salary isn't too much higher then the old one? Would that satisfy your notion of fairness? When new grads hired by the latter are getting p…

I did not defend the practice. I explained why they are asking. It has nothing to do with fairness, and everything to do with employers using it as a negotiating tactic.

In other words: If you don't know what you're worth, of course they won't give you what you're worth.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#527
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case the prior salary is used for anchoring purposes, by the expectation that the new salary should not be too much higher than the old salary. They're basically using it as a means to sanity check and calibrate their own assessment.

by the expectation that the new salary should not be too much higher than the old salary From where does this expectation derive, and what makes it a good barometer of sanity? On the face it just sounds like the same rationale used for basing raises on percentage of an employee's initial salary. "3% over your last job" is not fair.

The expectation derives from peoples lack of knowledge of what they're worth. It has nothing to do with fairness - it's about what they think they can get away with offering.

Based on experience, almost nobody negotiates their offers, and if you see people talking about their job moves, people are often excited about, say, a 10% increase.

That's why employers expect to be able to get away with anchoring it to your current salary.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#528
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because deceit runs through my soul and my heart is as black as damask cloth. The fact that I want to be paid what I feel I should and can be paid has no bearing on my performance and attitude at work. If you were to speak to any of my past employers, they would probably use the same sideways compliment my high school calc teacher wrote on a college recommendation: "brilliant, but like lightning in a bottle." Yo…

Honesty and integrity are pretty high on the list of qualities I like in people I associate and work with. The fact that you would conspire with your previous employer to artificially prop your value up and then tell a bold faced lie in an interview, does make it seem like you are not above doing whatever it takes to get what YOU want and feel you deserve.

This kind of naive thinking only hurts good people. Bad people already know not to listen to you.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#529
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it so weird to see a lone person here defending integrity. Capitalism, the kind that enables startup culture, is built on trust. Starting an employment relationship with a lie is not good way to build trust. I don't think employers should ask this, and they do employees should hold it against them. Employees shouldn't disclose it unless they want too. Anyone lying about this or anything else in the all too bri…

> Capitalism, the kind that enables startup culture, is built on trust. I see you've never run a business, because that kind of textbook ideation of capitalism is not practiced in the real world. If you'd been paying attention to labor conditions under capitalism in the US, you'd know that trust is the exception. Child labor, sweatshops, discrimination, wage theft, monopolies, companies colluding to fix wages - these…

I see you have already been downvoted heavily. But I feel that despite being completely wrong you were attempting a real rebuttal, with real thought and content.

Companies colluding to fix wages - This couldn't exist without the companies trusting each other.

monopolies - These don't need trust between customers and business. But they also represent a failure mode were capitalism breaks down... perhaps because customers don't trust vendors.

Wage theft - This can't go on long before the people earning those wages leave for a more trustworthy environment. There are plenty of examples of people switching jobs (or even countries) to get a more trustworthy employer to prevent this. It is far from perfect, but people generally don't like to be stolen from. Those that tolerate make life harder for those victims that don't.

Discrimination - I am not sure what this has to do with anything here. But even groups like the KKK have trust between member to not out each other. It is fucked up but trust does exist and enables them to operate.

Sweatshops - People wouldn't work in sweatshops if they didn't get paid, otherwise its called slavery. In slavery the slaves aren't economic participants, they are products. Even in slave trades there must be trust. The slavers trust they can sell and the consumers trust they they can buy. This sadly comes with all the assurances of quality that any other transaction comes with.

Child labor - Is very sad, but still requires trust. The kids were either bought/sold so again the slave transaction or the kids are employees and have the employer/employee relationship.

All capitalism requires trust. I never said blind trust, and never trust in the product beyond its ability to function. You cannot buy things from or sell things to someone you do not trust to not attempt to kill you as the most base level. The more valuable or nuanced the transaction the greater the trust required.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#530
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should you be at an advantage? Why should the negotiations have anything to do with your current salary?

They need to be at the advantage, their life and time is being bought. And because if the pay is shit, they'll only end up doing shitty work. Possibly leaving much not finished the next chance they get somewhere that is willing to compensate appropriately.

"They need to be at the advantage, their life and time is being bought."

Same is true for someone who is not good at negotiating, or is negotiating from a weaker position.

"And because if the pay is shit, they'll only end up doing shitty work."

So why not just have the company pay well for everyone?

Post reply on HN