To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls • Hacker News Board

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#521

Post by u801e » Wed, Mar 08, 2017, 3:16 AM UTC

sahaskatta wrote: post #500

u801e wrote: post #496

Collecting money via tolls has a higher administrative cost compared to collecting money via the gas tax [1]. The infrastucture to collect the gas tax is already in place. In contrast, there are a lot of things that need to be done before tolls can be put in place (legal, contracting, setting up collection points, etc). Plus, the public-private partnerships that some governments get into for these types of toll roads…

I wish it was that simple. Raising the gas tax isn't the solution. The gas tax will not work for to much longer because it doesn't accurately correlate to the number miles traveled. - A old compact car from 2007 may only get 20 mpg while a new car from 2017 may get 40 mpg. - Someone would a plug-in hybrid such as a Chevy Volt may only fill up their tank once every few months as they start off with a 50 mile battery r…

Any car that's sitting in stop and go traffic isn't going to get nearly the mileage they would get when driving at free flow highway speeds. As the vehicle fleet transitions to higher mileage vehicles, the gas tax can be adjusted to compensate based on overall usage and the number of registered vehicles.

And making those adjustments would cost far less money compared to setting up additional tolls or a VMT based taxation scheme.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#522

Post by jdminhbg » Wed, Mar 08, 2017, 3:18 AM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #324

yequalsx wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People do know that it costs to drive a car but the cost is hidden in some sense. I think few people actually calculate how much driving really costs. When I drive 10 miles I don't think to myself that it's going to cost me $5.40 (using IRS mileage rate). Gasoline taxes do not come close to paying for the road system. I remember when gas hit around $5 a gallon in the U.S. some years ago people did think about driving…

You haven't added the external cost to society -- accidents, pollution, congestion and so on. A study in Copenhagen found that the total cost (personal + to society) of cycling 1km was 8¢, versus 50¢ for driving, or 89¢ for driving at peak times. (That includes 16¢ given back to society in fuel tax.) The low cycling figure is mostly due to the positive benefit to society of a healthier population (reduced healthcare…

Accidents should be priced in via insurance; if the at-fault driver pays and liability insurance is mandatory, the costs are internalized.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#523

Post by cperciva » Wed, Mar 08, 2017, 3:19 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #469

cperciva wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of cars on the roads. Why? People live far away from their work. Why? Because they're not paying for the cost of the road capacity they're using.

> Because they're not paying for the cost of the road capacity they're using. Suppose it costs $3000/month for an apartment near where you work, because supply is constrained by bad zoning regulations etc. If it costs $1500/month + $400/month travel expenses to live an hour's drive away, lots of people will do that instead. If you add $1100/month to the cost of driving to discourage that, all that happens is that the…

If you add $1100/month to the cost of driving to discourage that, all that happens is that the $3000/month apartment goes up to $4000/month because you've increased demand for closer housing but not supply.

That's not all that happens. You also see an increase in the population living close to work (even without zoning changes, you'll have more people living in the same set of units) and employees demanding higher wages for working in inaccessible parts of town, and companies responding by moving offices to places where they can get cheaper workers (i.e., places which are more accessible).

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#524

Post by intopieces » Wed, Mar 08, 2017, 3:23 AM UTC

sahaskatta wrote: post #500

u801e wrote: post #496

Collecting money via tolls has a higher administrative cost compared to collecting money via the gas tax [1]. The infrastucture to collect the gas tax is already in place. In contrast, there are a lot of things that need to be done before tolls can be put in place (legal, contracting, setting up collection points, etc). Plus, the public-private partnerships that some governments get into for these types of toll roads…

I wish it was that simple. Raising the gas tax isn't the solution. The gas tax will not work for to much longer because it doesn't accurately correlate to the number miles traveled. - A old compact car from 2007 may only get 20 mpg while a new car from 2017 may get 40 mpg. - Someone would a plug-in hybrid such as a Chevy Volt may only fill up their tank once every few months as they start off with a 50 mile battery r…

>Raising the gas tax also unfairly punishes the lower income bracket who often drive older vehicles with worse MPG

Like with any tax, this can be made up as a deduction tied to income.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#525

Post by sampo » Wed, Mar 08, 2017, 3:25 AM UTC

Balgair wrote: post #275

bit_logic wrote: post #109

The true solution to LA traffic will never happen. And that solution is buses. But not the current underfunded system that barely limps along. A massive number of buses, like 5x the current number. And combined with tolls for cars to get cars off the road. The large number of buses is critical because it greatly reduces wait time between transfers. It also allows adding express bus lines between major areas. But buse…

I really like that idea. The last mile issue in LA really is a problem, trying to cross streets is like playing Frogger and that would help a lot. I actually rode the buses in LA for about 2 years (Westside to UCLA). Adding more buses, and I mean a LOT more buses (10x), may actually work. However, the issue with LA buses is not the frequency or the timing of transfers, it is the city and the people themselves. LA is…

> have you ridden the Big Blue Bus on an August Tuesday in 90+ degree heat at 5 pm?

So the buses in LA don't have air conditioning?

> The bums

It seems a bit uneconomical, if a population 10k smelly homeless prevents a population of 1+ million people getting to their work comfortably and efficiently.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#526

Post by rspeer » Wed, Mar 08, 2017, 3:29 AM UTC

bufordsharkley wrote: post #401

Osiris wrote: post #307

This is just a band-aid. Same with adding buses, lanes, trains, etc. When something goes wrong in software we usually try to resolve it by finding a root cause. There are a lot of cars on the roads. Why? People live far away from their work. Why? All the office buildings are in one central place. Why? ... Etc. The solutions to the root causes, whatever they are, are, unfortunately, a lot more complex and expensive th…

Most of these have to do with inefficient use of land, and ultimately can be aided with the big kahuna of fixes: a land value tax.[0] It would work to push back against restrictive zoning policies (holding costs of land go up), and would create a virtuous cycle of land values being invested back into local infrastructure, resulting in higher land values (you can get transit for free). Donald Shoup (the author of "The…

The problem with the prototypical Old Poor Widow (she lives in a million-dollar home in an excellent neighborhood, how sad) is that she votes in every local election.

The people who benefit from density -- the young, the renters -- don't vote. Well, they vote every four years in the high-drama national electoral-college reality show, but that doesn't matter. And the people working service jobs who have to commute in from far away couldn't vote for local candidates who would benefit their interests even if they wanted to, because of course they don't live there.

Politicians know that if they enact a land value tax, the elderly who lucked into amazing homes will vote them out of office. This won't change unless renters start voting for their interests.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#527

Post by tbrowbdidnso » Wed, Mar 08, 2017, 3:39 AM UTC

For the love of God it's not the traffic its lack of public transport. Once you hit a certain density CARS_DONT_WORK . Having lived in NYC, visiting LA was a joke.

The first thing I did after my first cab ride from the airport was look up public transport since I noticed traffic was worse than NYC. There wasn't any

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#528

Post by tmccrmck » Wed, Mar 08, 2017, 3:57 AM UTC

rspeer wrote: post #526

bufordsharkley wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of these have to do with inefficient use of land, and ultimately can be aided with the big kahuna of fixes: a land value tax.[0] It would work to push back against restrictive zoning policies (holding costs of land go up), and would create a virtuous cycle of land values being invested back into local infrastructure, resulting in higher land values (you can get transit for free). Donald Shoup (the author of "The…

The problem with the prototypical Old Poor Widow (she lives in a million-dollar home in an excellent neighborhood, how sad) is that she votes in every local election. The people who benefit from density -- the young, the renters -- don't vote. Well, they vote every four years in the high-drama national electoral-college reality show, but that doesn't matter. And the people working service jobs who have to commute in…

Well, how do we get the young to vote in every election? How do we get the 25 year old barista to care about their community when they've been transient since they were 18? And I mean consistently, not just every four years.

Among my peers there was so much political activity in the weeks after the national election. Unfortunately, it's already slowed down to a trickle after everyone has outrage fatigue. None of my friends want to even mention politics at this point.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#529

Post by wj » Wed, Mar 08, 2017, 4:08 AM UTC

Balgair wrote: post #337

engx wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bus anyway in LA is substantially longer than driving. LA traffic is so annoying that a lot of people would likely take the bus if it was faster. If there were 10x more busses, and I could pay $10 for an all day pass, I'd take the bus every other day. Especially if the higher cost limited those who unfortunately use mass transit as temporary shelter. (And find some alternative temporary no strings attached shelter…

Depending on traffic, the bus is typically about the same, maybe 5 minutes more on the hour long ride I took for 2 years under the 405 everyday. You have to add in the time it takes to find parking for your car, which a bus does not do. Yes, some days are worse, some are better, but for me it was about the same for a hour+ commute.

That is only true if you don't have a transfer.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#530

Post by CRUDmeariver » Wed, Mar 08, 2017, 4:10 AM UTC

bit_logic wrote: post #109

The true solution to LA traffic will never happen. And that solution is buses. But not the current underfunded system that barely limps along. A massive number of buses, like 5x the current number. And combined with tolls for cars to get cars off the road. The large number of buses is critical because it greatly reduces wait time between transfers. It also allows adding express bus lines between major areas. But buse…

As a frequent LA bus rider, I agree that the biggest problem is simply the infrequency of service. I can deal with the ride being bumpy, or sitting next to crazy people on occasion. Even the slowness and frequent stops don't bother me. When you subtract time for parking, your trip takes not much longer than driving, especially when traffic is slow.

But 20 minutes between each bus during rush hour is just indefensible. It's not a viable transit system, it's just a last ditch option. When two buses get bunched together, now it's suddenly 40 minutes. Throw in a transfer and things can get ridiculous.

The Red Line train comes every 13 minutes but at least it actually comes when it says it will (most of the time). The bus is scheduled to come every 15-20 but in practice it's more like two come five minutes apart and then you wait 25-30 for the next one.