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Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

nytimes.com

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Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#521

Post by imsofuture »

mistaken wrote: post #478
stygiansonic wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry that you had to go through this. I agree that it's intrusive and really shouldn't be tolerated. A while ago, I was in the middle of the job interview process for a company. Having read some rudimentary background on salary negotiation, I was somewhat prepared for how to deflect the "how much are you making?" question. The next interview was a technical interview, so I wasn't too focused on this aspect of th…

The correct answer to "how much are you making?" is I guess "how much are you willing to pay?"

Or "How much are you making? That's just as relevant..."

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#523

Post by jack9 »

phamilton wrote: post #300
jack9 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doesn't the fact that people are trying to compete with those services suggest that you can? In 20 years, we will see who is competing and who is was just funded with unicorn dreams. I don't consider a single one of those comparable.

> I don't consider a single one of those comparable. Azure and Google Compute Engine? I'd say those are pretty comparable to AWS.

Spend 25k a month on Azure vs AWS. It's not comparable any more than Sonii branded product are comparable to Sony products. One derives revenue comes from ignorance while the other is the product being copied, badly. GCE is akin to Oracle's "cloud offering" which is simply a different product, but hey they all say "cloud" so they are competing! Market influence isn't as powerful when you can't actually deliver. What's to the left of you at 33.802799, -117.885665 using apple maps? Oh Apple Maps a different market, meaning it's not in the same market. Being apologetic about features is being disingenuous about choices. There aren't that many for people who have specific technical needs and marketing doesn't solve "address those issues" (a scripted phrase from highwinds CDN, which is another terrible service). The leaders will stay that way and there's not a lot that venture capital can do to avoid that, since outliers are absorbed in these winner-take-all markets.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#524

Post by eru »

jghn wrote: post #513
eru wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google and Facebook etc often give 'restricted stock units', ie stock that vests over time. That's almost as good as cash, since you can sell them anytime after they are vesting. Stock in startups and options in general are a gamble, of course.

They're way better than startup-y options, definitely. However if for some reason I don't stay there long enough, it's not at all the same as cash. They're still plenty valuable, as opposed to startup options which I consider worthless, but my point was that IMO this is one of the sources of all of these debates as to how much people make. Some people will count them and others won't

At Google you wait for a year, and then get stock vesting every month. I just treat it like monthly salary (and don't even pay too much attention to how much unvested stock I theoretically have: if I stay, they'll top it up anyway; if I leave it's gone.)

Yes, totally agree, if you want to compare numbers, you have to agree on what you compare.

In theory, we could just always talk about total compensation, and just plug in standard financial valuation models. (Those models would typically value startup equity at close to zero value---especially the kind of equity that tends to get horribly diluted.)

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#525

Post by eru »

zenlikethat wrote: post #511
eru wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chasers will only drag your salary down, if the business can't distinguish you from them when hiring. Luckily, it's pretty easy for you to signal that you are not a chaser. Getting paid more than other folks mostly means you are better at interviewing and negotiations. (Or, if you are a lifer, that you are good at your company's promotion process. If your company is sane, that might even imply something about how…

It's not just the Internet, it's real life too. If salaries are low across the board at $COMPANY it's an easy wedge for the management to use. "We couldn't give you more because then you would be making more than your coworkers. Do you feel like you really deserve more? You should be happy to have what you do already." If your coworkers are also too meek to ask for raises it's bad news for all the engineers. Pressure…

Yes. And that's why every employee should spend some low amount of background effort constantly interviewing elsewhere. First, to get a feeler for what the rest of the market is doing. Second, to take a better offer if available. Third, even a committed lifer needs to keep the interviewing skills sharp, in case of layoffs or bankruptcy.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#526

Post by eru »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #520
eru wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you get bitten by that, you are just a bad negotiator.

64k Bay Area tech workers were bad negotiators? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...

Sorry, I was only responding to your first line.

Totally agree that the price fixing wasn't kosher.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#527

Post by WalterBright »

nikatwork wrote: post #442
WalterBright wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put it in simpler terms, if an employee creates $100 in value but only costs $10, competitors will line up to outbid that $10 to poach that employee.

...except if all the competitors ask how much the employee was paid at their last gig, so bid $12. Price fixing is an actual thing, that's why we have labor laws. Also see: non-compete agreements.

And the next competitor bids $12.

There are 10s of thousands of businesses in the US. It's hard to believe there'd be any remotely successful collusion in keeping wages down.

Non-compete agreements are invalid in many states. Also, would you sign a non-compete agreement in order to get paid 10% of your value to the business?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#528

Post by stevebmark »

By the way, if a new employer asks this, you don't have to answer them. You can politely say "I'd prefer not to share my previous salary with you." If you're at this point in the discussion this isn't likely to hurt your chances of being hired.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#529

Post by patrickthebold »

slg wrote: post #58
markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

I am a developer, so I am all for higher developer salaries, but your posts shows a common misunderstanding about economics. The value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary. Their salary is dictated by how many people need to hire developers and how many developers exist to fill those jobs or in simple terms, supply and demand. I might create millions of dollars in value with my code, but there might be…

I think his point may be: Don't be that guy who accepts $5k less.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#530

Post by infinotize »

eru wrote: post #490
Frondo wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great! I dig how you treat them with respect and human dignity, that they're not beneath you but working hard, too. I hope you also support their right to unionize wherever that is possible.

How does one follow from the other? I appreciate that grocers are selling me cheap goods, and that it took hard work to create and supply them. Yet, I don't want them to form a cartel.

"Whoa, whoa, whoa. I like to be nice enough to the Help so that I can pat myself on the back. But let's not get ahead of ourselves and let these people fight for higher wages, which might impact my costs!"
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