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The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

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Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#521

Post by ecdavis »

Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #205
netcan wrote: post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

My favored election procedure works like this: Every citizen takes a standardized test when they reach the age of majority, preferably Raven's matrices. This test would be used for scholastic and career purposes, aside from government. A representative body of 150 people is randomly selected from those in the top 0.1 percent every N years. The IQ test filters for intelligence, obviously. Random sampling serves as an…

What you've described sounds like a significantly worse implementation of the fundamental idea behind Plato's philosopher-kings.

Put simply, systems like this deny the population the right of self-determination.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#522

Post by DanBC »

dang wrote: post #506
stcredzero wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am amazed at the low level of discussion in the UK even by their representatives. Here in the US, I find myself wishing political discourse would rise to the level of the UK.

Watching the BBC last night was like drinking better beer. I couldn't believe how much better it was, not just the broadcasters but nearly all the guests. The only bum note was the poor fellow who had to do a vaudeville act with hand-waving and silly magic graphs, and that was the one obviously CNN-derived bit.

We've had silly magic graphs for years!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/swingometer/

Here's a clip from 1979 http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/swingometer/11202.shtml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8646445...

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#523

Post by kloncks »

gshulegaard wrote: post #258
Inthenameofmine wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We haven't figured this shit out yet. Kings anyone? How about the best wrestler gets to be in charge? ideas? As a Swiss citizen, I think the swiss system is very close to perfect in this regard. Sure, emotional and stupid arguments sometimes prevail, but most of the time the people make the perfect decision. Public discourse is most often also very rational, more so than most world parliaments. Irrational arguments…

As a Californian, I am genuinely curious what you think is the problem with California at the moment?

I think he was referring to the madness that occurred from the governor recall and revote a few years back, which would be like a major referendum

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#524

Post by kgwgk »

nickbauman wrote: post #473
Inthenameofmine wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We haven't figured this shit out yet. Kings anyone? How about the best wrestler gets to be in charge? ideas? As a Swiss citizen, I think the swiss system is very close to perfect in this regard. Sure, emotional and stupid arguments sometimes prevail, but most of the time the people make the perfect decision. Public discourse is most often also very rational, more so than most world parliaments. Irrational arguments…

I've read Rousseau (who was Swiss) and was fascinated by his assessment that representative democracies lead to parties which lead to factions which leads to self-destruction; that the only viable form of Democracy was direct plebiscite, as often as possible. CH still operates this way.

A minor clarification: Rousseau was not Swiss. He was born in Geneva, but Geneva didn't join the Swiss Confederation until 1815 (many years after his death).

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#525

Post by aidos »

jacquesm wrote: post #475
aidos wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I was thinking today, we could weight the votes by life expectancy. The fewer years left in your life, the less your vote counts. In this case I wouldn't have to go home and explain to my children why it is that they probably won't be allowed to go and live in Europe for a bit when they hit their 20s anymore.

I do not think you'll have to explain them that they will be just as welcome as everybody else.

I wrote it in a rush a phrased it poorly / overly strongly. I meant it in the spirit of it being definitively harder to do than it is now.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#526

Post by T-A »

flubert wrote: post #483
maxerickson wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of people didn't vote, so leave won even though only 37% of the population voted that way.

Honest question, what percentage of the population voted to join the EU originally?

67.23% of all votes cast. Turnout was 64.62%, so 43.2% of all registered voters [1]. As fraction of total population, it was 56.23 million in 1975 [2] and the total number of Yes votes was 17,378,581, so 30.91%.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Commun...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingd...

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#527

Post by ecdavis »

thesimpsons1022 wrote: post #188
downandout wrote: post #140

This is the problem with popular votes on issues with far-reaching and complex consequences. There are certain matters that are better left to elected politicians. If one were to have a popular vote as to whether or not we should dissolve the IRS in the US, that measure would likely pass because "yay no taxes!" but would result in the collapse of the US government. I'm not sure that individual voters that have no con…

it's taboo to say this but I've been reading a lot about Ancient Rome before Ceasar and yearn for that type of government. I know people have a disdain for aristocracy but people in charge were raised knowing they'd be powerful. As such, they'd be extensively educated both academically and in Roman culture. (Also sometimes moving to Greece to study at the best universities in the world). There was also no partisanshi…

> There was also no partisanship as each senator made the moves that benefitted them or their people the most.

How would you describe the populares and the optimates?

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#528

Post by y4mi »

PKop wrote: post #476
manarth wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is being widely reported: "The higher the level of education, the higher the EU support". > "According the polls, university graduates were the most likely people to want to remain in the EU - while those with a GCSE or equivalent as their highest qualification were more likely to back Brexit." > "Those with no education tended to vote Brexit" Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how.…

Uneducated ~> poor, Educated ~> wealthy. Don't you think opposition to mass immigration policy supported by the pro-EU side might have something to do with lower income/education class voting leave? Something at all... maybe a little bit? Perhaps, though you might not have noticed it, they were voting their self interest? Is it surprising that highly educated class wouldn't feel threatened by importing more low-skill…

well, thats not what he said though.

he specifically mention well educated. not wealthy, smart or whatever and put numbers on his claim. you on the other hand just put words into his mouth which he didn't actually say...

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#529

Post by cookiecaper »

makomk wrote: post #496
cookiecaper wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing: old people don't vote for that kind of thing, at least not if they have children and grandchildren. They've invested decades of heavy personal sacrifice into building a future for their posterity. They're not going to counteract that lifelong goal and knowingly vote for something that will inflict real pain or hindrance on the generations they've parented. Personally I believe the elderly make much…

Here's the thing: if you look at how the UK welfare system treats (say) the younger people who lose their jobs or suffer accidents or illness that stops them from working compared with how it treats the elderly, and pay attention to the politics behind it, or if you think about the emphasis on ensuring house price growth and who benefits, or... the comment you're replying to is an exaggeration of what already happens…

The difference with state pensions, welfare, etc., is that it's getting back money that has been taken out of their earnings and promised to them for decades. I think that's an important distinction. In America, we do base the amount of Social Security you receive on the amount you paid in; it's supposed to be like a forced savings account.

When the youth pay in, it's not seen as "the youth are paying for my retirement", it's seen as "the youth are paying for their retirements; I already paid for mine over the last 50 years, and now I'm going to start using it."

That's all well and good but the problem now is that politicians have pillaged the welfare funds and the programs are insolvent. The welfare and pensions need to be phased out. Those who've paid in for 50 years should get what we have left. Those who've paid in for 5-10 years are probably going to have to be SOL. That's a matter of simple fairness; the funds have been robbed, and it makes sense that those with the least to lose should bear the brunt.

If the case be convincingly made that the younger generations are going to be grievously harmed by the continuation of welfare programs, I believe the parents of those generations would do what parents do and take it on the chin for the benefit of their posterity. But I don't believe that's necessary in this instance; we should be able to give a very respectable portion of the population the amount of money we've promised them.

One of the other benefits of age is that you eventually come to understand that even a significant monetary loss can be made up over time, and that setbacks aren't the end of the world. As such, it's much more logical to solve the insolvency issues by asking how much time the person has left to make up the loss. Those who've spent decades paying in should get their promised quantities since they have very little or no time available to make up the monetary hit, those who have the most time to make up the difference and have also spent the least time paying in should get nothing, and those in between should get in between. Then the unsustainable system that caused this mess in the first place has to be dismantled.

We shouldn't confuse an interest in the reasonable fulfillment of the state's decades-long promises with disregard for the children's interests at large.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#530

Post by geon »

jonwachob91 wrote: post #437
partiallypro wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also very hard for a poorer or even middle class immigrant to move to a place like Switzerland because the cost of living is so high. This creates an environment of unanimity you wouldn't see in more diverse cultures like the U.S. or the U.K. I think that's largely why Switzerland and the Scandinavian states get accolades from U.S. politicians (not as much division.) But they don't seem to get that the cultures…

>that's largely why Switzerland and the Scandinavian states get accolades from U.S. politicians (not as much division.) I have to disagree with you. I have a lot of friends in Sweden that do nothing but complain about the immigration crisis they are facing. In fact one of my Swedish friends is here in the US now looking for a job because immigration has become such an issue in Sweden. She can name many immigrants she…

> She can name many immigrants she knows that are collecting more in welfare from the Swedish Government than what a Doctor makes...

Really? I have seen plenty of claims like that, and every time, they turn out to be false.

And how much exactly does a "doctor" make? Lönestatistik.se lists between 12k and 180k SEK/month. Quite a span.

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