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Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

reuters.com

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Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#511

Post by macintux »

AndroTux wrote: post #471
MBCook wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple could build it in a way that other model providers could safely and securely interface with the Spotlight index How? How do you safely handover effectively every single bit of data on someone’s phone to any third-party company and preserve privacy? Sure you can try and demand agreements from the third parties but will the EU see that as a move to limit competition? Ignoring all other concerns it is a rather t…

If you decide to upload all your data to $company, that’s your choice. I don’t see why a user shouldn’t have the choice to do that. People already have all their data with Google and Meta, so I don’t see why this would be an issue for many. It’s not Apples job to protect users from themselves. Besides, opening up the API would also allow people to self-host their models and plug in their own servers instead of having…

> It’s important to note that this isn’t about privacy.

Strong disagree.

Most people have no idea what someone could do with their phone's cumulative data.

And when Facebook offers to dramatically enhance your personal network experience if you just configure their AI engine into your phone's settings, how many will understand the impact of that?

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#512

Post by viktorcode »

fundatus wrote: post #431
viktorcode wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean DMCA. It is not an antitrust framework. Europe has pretty robust anti-trust framework. DMCA is an attempt to regulate companies that cannot be legally considered monopolies, and that do not run afoul of any pre-existing EU regulation. Just for that case a new category of business classification was invented: the gatekeepers, and coincidentally almost all of those gatekeepers are American companies. Unlike an…

DMCA is the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, a US law. DMA is the Digital Markets Act, a EU law. It is in fact an antitrust law. It basically argues (correctly in my opinion) that Apple and other companies have created new markets inside of their products. And in those markets they exert total control, including charging developers extortionate fees, forcing them to use their subpar and expensive payment systems or…

Sorry, my mistake. DMA. However, it runs counter to the definition of antitrust law, that is the law that applies to the trust or a monopoly, an entity that controls the market. DMA instead applies to the companies of certain size, regardless whether they have market control or not.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#513

Post by viktorcode »

Kovah wrote: post #464
viktorcode wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, write to your European MP.

To do what exactly? Apple does not adhere to EU law. It's their task to either go with the local law, or leave their customers hanging. And I rightfully express my disappointment that they currently do the latter.

They do adhere to the law perfectly by not providing a law breaking feature. If you don't like the way the law allows that, you should address your complaints to the lawmaker.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#514

Post by rpdillon »

dylan604 wrote: post #200
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you knew the restrictions day one you’d be able to engineer the system to accommodate them This slows down deploying the system globally. Particularly if the target is moving, it may make sense to build lightly so one can pivot, and then build in the compliance stuff after you know you have a winning configuration. The EU has its laws. Apple has its strategy. The only thing I fault anyone on is the public bicker…

If Apple is so pro-privacy like they claim, then they'd look for the most strict international privacy laws and abide by them. Then they could feel safe in knowing they could release the product anywhere. The fact they want to make the product available under the "rules" of the least privacy protecting countries first says a lot to me

Its because the standard product development strategy is to get the product into the hands of users to determine value and iterate based on feedback.

The EU has rules that are expensive to implement correctly, so if you want early feedback from users, you release elsewhere first. It's a very rational way to approach it.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#515

Post by miroljub »

shykes wrote: post #429
Nifty3929 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, exactly! Also forced EU voters to consider how much they value these services, and whether the regulations are worth it not to have them, or to have watered down versions of them. I say this without judgment - I see it as a legitimate area of consideration. I think the worst is hugely impactful laws for which exceptions are constantly carved out so nobody can truly evaluate whether the law/reg is a good one or n…

> Also forced EU voters to consider how much they value these services It's been a while since I left Europe, and I'm rusty on that particular layer of civics. Do EU voters actually have a say in this kind of regulation? Or is it all decided on the executive side which is only accountable to member states and not to individual citizens?

> Do EU voters actually have a say in this kind of regulation?

EU voters don't have any saying in any EU level regulation. The EU regime do basically what they want.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#516

Post by miroljub »

solid_fuel wrote: post #449
christkv wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None. The EU is getting more and more un democratic by the year. More power centralized in the bureaucracy vis regulations and other mechanisms.

You have anything to back up that claim, or is it just knee-jerk drivel with no evidence based on your feelings and distrust of scary government bureaucrats?

Do you have any evidence supporting the notion that EU decisions process is democratic?

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#518

Post by tqwhite »

dylan604 wrote: post #200
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you knew the restrictions day one you’d be able to engineer the system to accommodate them This slows down deploying the system globally. Particularly if the target is moving, it may make sense to build lightly so one can pivot, and then build in the compliance stuff after you know you have a winning configuration. The EU has its laws. Apple has its strategy. The only thing I fault anyone on is the public bicker…

If Apple is so pro-privacy like they claim, then they'd look for the most strict international privacy laws and abide by them. Then they could feel safe in knowing they could release the product anywhere. The fact they want to make the product available under the "rules" of the least privacy protecting countries first says a lot to me

The EU isn't asking for more privacy. This is about interoperability and competition. They don't like Apple controlling the AI interface and want a portal. They want Apple to put a backdoor into their system to allow third parties to access the data. This is insanely difficult to do while maintaining Apple's super-strict (yay!) privacy policy.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#519

Post by simjnd »

theshrike79 wrote: post #444
simjnd wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, I see. I overestimated the amount of stripping / anonymization that was being done on device. Thought the server-side could be quite generic. Thanks!

Naturally the server needs to know things. If you want it to, for example, summarise your HRV or menstrual cycle you can't anonymise it or you don't have any data to analyse. It'd be just "wink wink nudge nudge" with zero context.

Of course, but the iPhone could send slightly altered data to avoid fingerprinting (tweaking age / weight / height slightly) like browsers do with sensors.

Some data could outright be replaced (names, etc) and swapped back on device.

It couldn't do it with ALL the data (eg. calendar data needs to be accurate) but just because you need to give context doesn't mean sacrificing privacy.

Everything would go through an Apple proxy before reaching a theoretical 3rd-party provider.

These wouldn't provide privacy GUARANTEES but could make it reasonably difficult and expensive to fingerprint?

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#520

Post by rpdillon »

fnordsensei wrote: post #122
eykanal wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google eng mgr here. I've worked on a few projects related to compliance with various government policies. This isn't "assign a two-pizza team to it, will be done in a quarter"; these types of compliance efforts can mean completely redoing multiple core systems to handle privacy, wipeout, audit, reporting, per-location policies, etc etc. These efforts can involve hundreds to thousands of people for multiple years. Su…

The point isn’t that it’s easy or straightforward to do. The point is that one of the world’s wealthiest companies can spare the resources needed to comply with the regulations of one of the world’s largest markets.

It's simply a prioritizing time to market over a global release. You tend to release into the most restrictive environments last and the most forgiving environments first, for obvious reasons.
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