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Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

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Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#511

Post by bwfan123 »

camelmel wrote: post #35

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

> I wanted to be in denial about it before but it's too obvious to ignore now

Use-it-or-lose-it is the evolutionary principle, both for cognitive and physical abilities.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#512

Post by windward »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #334
windward wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>(perhaps guide them how they can use them professionally) If that's anything like how they guided me to use programming languages professionally... In my workplace I find systems and policies move too slowly to keep up with how rapidly the LLM world is changing. Colleges are even more glacial. They've barely adapted to video conferencing.

> In my workplace I find systems and policies move too slowly to keep up with how rapidly the LLM world is changing. Colleges are even more glacial. Perhaps this is rather a sign that you currently shouldn't jump on the LLM hype train, but rather attempt to get a good foundation on the basics. When the whole LLM area becomes much more "stabilized" (I see signs that this is currently happening, if only for the reason…

I partly agree, depending on what you count as the basics. I don't think there's much value in learning the quirks of LLMs today: they will just change, your value-add becomes part of the model or harness.

On the other hand I think there are real development gains in jumping on the train today. To my career's detriment.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#513

Post by windward »

samsolomon wrote: post #305
windward wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>(perhaps guide them how they can use them professionally) If that's anything like how they guided me to use programming languages professionally... In my workplace I find systems and policies move too slowly to keep up with how rapidly the LLM world is changing. Colleges are even more glacial. They've barely adapted to video conferencing.

Ancient brains, medieval institutions, godlike technology. Tristan Harris had some sort of comment like that on a podcast about the challenges posed by AI.

I think it's incredible how much those ancient brains can successfully adapt to technology. Some people can sit in highly-strung sports cars and use them at the absolute limit of their performance like they're just an extension of our own limbs and senses.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#514

Post by alphabeta3r56 »

acaloiar wrote: post #187
matwood wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes time to work through the system and it has been steadily getting worse. It was already discussed on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48309233

I'm having a difficult time imagining how an admissions event in 2021 materializes in the spring semester of 2026 in a class largely taken by first-year students. Could you explain?

One big reason is preparation, people start preparing for tests 2 to 3 years in advance. And the method of testing influences exams used in grades before as well.

So assume 4 years of high school and someone that just came in. They are still preparing for SAT like tests in their first year of high school. Someone in final year of high school is well trained in it. So even though the benefits do not carry, enough portion of incoming students are still reaping benefits of standardized tests. The decay only shows later when batches without any benefits of standardized tests are coming through.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#515

Post by mywittyname »

cj wrote: post #295
eueje wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“ However, when looking at muscle, once you have it you don't need to use it as much in order to maintain it” No.. this depends on how much muscle you have. The appropriate comparison is mass and density of knowledge/understanding vs muscle. There’s not a chance in hell you will retain mass and dense muscle without pushing the body hard. Just in the same way you will not retain very deep understanding of things unles…

Building muscle is much harder than maintaining muscle. And if you went 3 years without exercising, you'll be able to get your muscles back much quicker than had you never had the muscle before. It's pretty comparable to skills. You don't need to practice as hard to maintain a skill than you do to build it. And if you let the skill atrophy, it's much easier to recover the skill compared to building it from scratch.

> And if you went 3 years without exercising, you'll be able to get your muscles back much quicker than had you never had the muscle before.

This very much depends on age. I went on statins about 18 months, which destroyed about 15lbs of muscle over the course of a year (160->145). Along with that muscle loss came about a halving or more of the weights I could lift in any given exercise. I interpreted the "do you have any weakness on this medication" question as inability to function levels of weakness, it wasn't until I showed my training logs to my physician that she asserted that I was having weakness.

It's been a year since I went off them and I'm still lifting barely what I could in high school. I'm exploring some different training plans, but AFAIK, there isn't much research into if different weight/volume breakdowns work better for older guys.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#516

Post by xhkkffbf »

Jtarii wrote: post #489
gcanyon wrote: post #316

It's incredibly difficult at this point to "skate where the puck is going" as Gretzky is said to have done. No one knows what knowledge work will look like in five years. People used to memorize log and trig tables, and no one would say that's part of being a competent mathematician at this point. That said, assessments of poor critical thinking skills jump out at me more than the rest. That sort of thing seems likel…

>People used to memorize log and trig tables, and no one would say that's part of being a competent mathematician at this point. That would be closer to engineering or accounting than mathematics. I don't think mathematicians do much arithmetic at all.

Go read the story that Richard Feynman tells of betting an abacus user. He used his knowledge of some strange numbers. It's in _Surely You Must Be Joking_.

I suspect his facility with numbers and his knowledge of tables like this really helped him do physics research.

See also his stories on approximation.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#517

Post by qwertygnu »

Jtarii wrote: post #444
rybosworld wrote: post #419

If you watch old videos of tradesmen using basic hand tools like hammers, you'll find examples of skill/dexterity with the tool that I think don't exist today at all except maybe in communities like the Amish. I think it's true that we collectively lose something akin to beauty every time technology advances. But usually some new set of skills that have beauty emerge. If LLMs end up being the pneumatic nail gun for t…

It seems pretty clear that LLMs are going to be extremely corrosive to culture in general.

Unfortunately it's already time to remove the "going to be" part of this.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#518

Post by SirMaster »

camelmel wrote: post #35

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

I don't understand why people take shortcuts in school. You pay a LOT of money to be there to learn. Taking shortcuts seems completely counterintuitive to me.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#519

Post by mywittyname »

frollogaston wrote: post #138
somenameforme wrote: post #39

The likely 'real' reason is hidden in one paragraph within the article and has nothing to do with the implication of the eye-catching title: "Both Garcia and Ranade have joined more than 1,300 UC faculty in signing a petition calling for the reinstatement of ACT and SAT standardized testing scores for STEM admissions in the UC system. The petition and its accompanying open letter detail similar concerns with students…

Berkeley chancellor told students to vote for 2020 California Proposition 16, which would've repeated 1996 Proposition 209 that banned race-based admission in public universities. Prop 16 failed. Subsequently, Cal started ignoring SAT/ACT scores. I have to think this was their alternative way of taking fewer Asian students, who average highest on that. Soon after I got an email from the same chancellor praising the c…

They could have easily made test scores a pass/fail per program and not weight higher scores for admission purposes. It achieves the goal of ensuring students have requisite knowledge for the program while not favoring students who are able to ace the test.

Or, even better - just expand programs so they can accept more students who pass the test. This would probably improve diversity without artificially restricting access to highish performers.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#520

Post by airstrike »

SirMaster wrote: post #518
camelmel wrote: post #35

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

I don't understand why people take shortcuts in school. You pay a LOT of money to be there to learn. Taking shortcuts seems completely counterintuitive to me.

A lot of people view it, rightly or wrongly, as paying a lot of money to earn a degree that opens up certain opportunities, while learning is secondary, so minimizing effort is worth it.

And to some people, it's not even a lot of money.

In many ways, schools are just the modern day peerage system.

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