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I'm going back to writing code by hand

blog.k10s.dev

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Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#511

Post by doctorpangloss »

pron wrote: post #192

Yep. The only people I've heard saying that generated code is fine are those who don't read it. The problem is that the mitigations offered in the article also don't work for long. When designing a system or a component we have ideas that form invariants. Sometimes the invariant is big, like a certain grand architecture, and sometimes it’s small, like the selection of a data structure. You can tell the agent what the…

Code that delivers everything that it asks for and more is fine! This has always been the case, it has always been, "If it looks good, it is good." You are an entrepreneur too, you know this in your heart of hearts.

I'm sure you agree broadly with Gabe Newell, "people who don't know how to program who use AI to scaffold their programming abilities will become more effective developers of value than people who've been programming, y'know, for a decade." Look, he's talking about you and me. Programming for a while is quickly becoming worthless. It is of course the journey of programming that gives some people insight to real problems - business, creative, whatever - so it is extra important that the people with the best programming skills use the chatbots to write a lot of code that you and I will absolutely never read.

And anyway, you, as consumer, are constantly using code you have never read. Lots of code is shipped that we never read. There is nothing special about reading code. Even if you and I learned everything by reading code, it doesn't mean that generated code isn't going to create value. It's going to generate tons and tons of value.

Yet another POV is, if you are making code for customers who need to read the code, you are making a mistake, in the long term. It is a very, very interesting way to think about efforts around SBOM and various security companies - a far more informative lens to look at Wiz or Cloudflare, and what value they actually provide, because it's not code - and how relatively little enterprise value the "we read everything" teams at high frequency trading startups really deliver. You know this, you know exactly what I am talking about, it's your experience, so it is surprising to hear from you, talking in generalities against a trend that is obviously coming for all the best programmers.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#512

Post by luckydata »

pron wrote: post #192

Yep. The only people I've heard saying that generated code is fine are those who don't read it. The problem is that the mitigations offered in the article also don't work for long. When designing a system or a component we have ideas that form invariants. Sometimes the invariant is big, like a certain grand architecture, and sometimes it’s small, like the selection of a data structure. You can tell the agent what the…

it's not a solved problem but it's not impossible to keep it at bay either. I created this tool for my own project and it does a pretty darn good job at keeping the AI accountable, I have a harness that runs this in a loop and helps refactor as we go like humans do anyways:

https://github.com/CaliLuke/lagotto

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#514

Post by luckydata »

IdiotSavage wrote: post #260
perarneng wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you know how to write good code you can force AI to write good code with various techniques. It's 100% doable. You just need to figure out the problems AI has and find solutions to make it easier for it. Ex: extremely small contexts Modularize to modules with clear boundaries and only allow the AI to work within those boundaries. Make modules pure from IO so they are easily testable. Hide modules behind interfaces…

So, basically you need to micro-manage it. Where are your 10x gains now? And is it fun to work like that?

you do not. Just build the right tools as you go. A small example of one of the pieces of my toolchain: https://github.com/CaliLuke/lagotto

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#515

Post by fancythat »

echelon wrote: post #365
fancythat wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless there is a way to see or check the whole prompt that made this game, it is hard for me personally to say if this is impressive or not as I don't know what percentage of this was vibe coded. I also see there is an incentive to skew the truth here, as there is a substantial prize pool and that usually makes people become very creative. In the past, I was trying to reproduce vibe coding results when I managed to…

He's been fairly forthcoming about his process: https://x.com/DannyLimanseta/status/2052040017007251946 Here are the direct links: https://github.com/dannylimanseta/tinyskies https://github.com/dannylimanseta/tinyskies/blob/cursor/glob... https://github.com/dannylimanseta/tinyskies/blob/cursor/glob...

Thanks for that. I skimmed through provided links, only thing I can conclude was, it was a process of do something and let's hope for the best. I also see references to files not linked to Github, so I don't know what is contained inside of it: "Here’s what was added to the paintball_replaces_barrel_roll_19e450df.plan.md"

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#516

Post by _verandaguy »

amw-zero wrote: post #346
herdcall wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no longer sure you have to, actually. I mean, we do trust the assembly that compilers produce without having to read it, don't we? We're rapidly getting to that stage with LLMs, IMO.

This is a really, really, really bad comparison. I used to say the same thing. But the semantic distance between compiling a for loop to equivalent assembly instructions is much smaller than the distance between "I'd like a web application that can store and retrieve todo items." The space of the latter is practically infinite in what can be "compiled."

A counterpoint, since I never made that logical jump in your latter part of your comment: programming languages are, functionally, all domain-specific languages and do a good job of either describing directly, or consistently, deterministically, providing a reasonable and unambiguous abstraction over low-level concepts expressed by assembly languages.

Human languages are mostly very bad at this, and in particular bad at mapping low-level abstraction to the human written word unambiguously in a way that is as expressive as programming languages.

Inference closes that specific gap significantly (which is why anyone at all sees LLMs as a useful option to explore), but it will never be as good as a purpose-built language designed to map to a reasonable corresponding assembly language implementation.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#517

Post by abalashov »

Kiro wrote: post #375
pron wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with both statements, but that doesn't change the problem I stated. If an agent produces reasonable code 80-90% of the time, and 10-20% of the time it makes mistakes that could render the codebase irretrievably unevolvable once they accumulate, the only thing you can do is to carefully review the agent's output 100% of the time. That it gets things right 80% of the time as opposed to 40% of the time doesn't c…

And humans produce 100% reasonable code or what? The kind of mess me and everyone I've worked with produces by hand is the inverse of that. Constant shortcuts and lazy slop through and through. Never worked anywhere where the code wasn't an entangled disarray. As soon as requirements change the abstractions fall apart and everything gets shoehorned.

No, humans don't produce 100% reasonable code, but the nature of human mistakes, foibles and unreasonableness is very different from the kind slop farming yields.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#518

Post by abalashov »

indoordin0saur wrote: post #400
pron wrote: post #192

Yep. The only people I've heard saying that generated code is fine are those who don't read it. The problem is that the mitigations offered in the article also don't work for long. When designing a system or a component we have ideas that form invariants. Sometimes the invariant is big, like a certain grand architecture, and sometimes it’s small, like the selection of a data structure. You can tell the agent what the…

Write your code by hand, but AI still serves as something of a stack overflow and code completion tool. Also good for writing tedious things like regex or little one-off utility scripts as well as a first crack at unit tests. Using it to actually write big blocks of important code is a no-no in my opinion as it produces what I would characterize as slop, even if it technically works.

This is exactly my conclusion, to the letter.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#519

Post by ffritz »

sirwhinesalot wrote: post #277
IdiotSavage wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, basically you need to micro-manage it. Where are your 10x gains now? And is it fun to work like that?

This is actually what I do. I'm extremely picky about the code and force the LLM to rewrite it 1000x times until it is basically exactly what I want. You might be wondering what is the point when it would be faster for me to just write the code myself? I have ADHD and for whatever reason telling the LLM what to do instead of doing it myself bypasses the task avoidance patterns and/or focus problems I tend to suffer f…

That’s me too! I still have not figured out how to also make it enjoyable.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#520

Post by cevn »

abustamam wrote: post #422
gylterud wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Juniors learn. Some juniors are potential good seniors. Over time they will internalise good architecture and be able to make good judgments on their own. Micromanaging LLMs is like having Dory from Finding Nemo as your colleague. You find ways to communicate, but there is no learning going on.

LLMs can learn, just not the same way that juniors do. When an LLM does something wrong you can always update it's rules or skills to not make that mistake again. Or you can utilize a subagent whose sole purpose is to review code to prevent that mistake. Lots of ways you can improve LLMs over time. Of course if you don't provide that feedback loop, no learning happens. I guess the same could be said of a junior, thou…

I've seen AI forget or ignore their own rules so not sure that really counts.
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