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The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

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Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#511

Post by ribosometronome »

techblueberry wrote: post #432
JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

I know this is weird, but I'm in some ways not really sure who is on the side of freedom here. I get your position, but like. The whole idea of the promise of the internet has been destroyed by newsfeeds and mega-corps. There is almost literally documented examples of Facebook executives twirling their mustaches wondering how they can get kids more addicted. This isn't a few bands with swear words, and in fact, I thi…

>I get your position ... There is almost literally documented examples of Facebook executives twirling their mustaches wondering how they can get kids more addicted. This isn't a few bands

Their position was to compare it to alcohol, guns, and tobacco, not bands using naughty words. Alcohol and tobacco definitely enter mustache swirling territory, getting children addicted and funding misinformation on the harms of their product.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#512

Post by Noaidi »

tolmasky wrote: post #254
Noaidi wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever happened to all the innovation the tech world was capable of? This is 100% a solvable problem. It only needs the will and good law. 1) Person signs up with discord with fake name and fake email. 2) Discord asks (state system) for an age validation. 3) In pop up window, state validates the persons age with ID matching with face recognition. 3) State system sends token to discord with yes or no with zero data…

I want to sincerely ask whether you read my post, because your response is so unrelated I believe you might accidentally be responding to another post? If so, please ignore the rest, which is only intended in the case where you are actually responding to what I wrote. Your system seems to address none of the issues I listed. For example, I argue that one difficulty is in the fact that these systems would be highly ph…

> these systems would be highly phishable

Well this is true of all of the internet, yes?

https://bankingjournal.aba.com/2025/08/report-financial-inst...

https://www.cyberdefensemagazine.com/the-rise-in-phishing-sc...

Your example about migrant workers is not an internet problem, it is a government problem. And a capitalism problem. I mean migrant workers? Why do these workers need to migrate? Usually because the U.S. has probably decimated their country.

But never mind, I agree that this is an unsolvable problem, not from lack of capability, but because we are ruled by sociopaths and most humans have been hacked by their addiction pathways. And I do not care about Saudi Arabia or Asia because I do not live there. And I do not care if they block all of the internet. We do not need it for anything, even less so for organizing.

Maybe we should just leave the internet, which is only a capitalist and government collusion to make people spend money. All the internet did was concentrate power to a few oligarchs. For everything good that the internet has provided I can show you ten things that are not only bad, but 1000 times worse, like monkey torture video sharing.

If I had kids today they would not even use the internet until they were out of my care. I only have six accounts on the internet. Including HN. I do not view porn, gamble, have any social media, and in fact I am trying to became un-homeless so I can go back to a flip phone.

IMHO, the answer is not a fee internet, the answer is leaving the internet. But it seems you made and make a nice living at all of this so I see what a sacrifice that would be for you. You are probably part of the reason I am homeless today, with the separation for wealth and all that. I see that you dnated to a bunch of neoliberal types and that fits. Seems you had over $17,000 to give to politicians. That is more than I survive on for a year. I mean, you do not need to do any work at all today. You could retire right now.

Sorry for the unrelated rant, but needed to get that off my chest for myself. Just tired of wealthy people trying to perfect a horrible system and technology that keeps making them money. You pretend like you care about the poor, like the migrant worker, but that is just laughable. If you did you would be against capitalism. You would give up all you own and follow Christ or Buddha or whatever. I mean you got $20 million and what did you do? You started making addictive games. And then you donate to these neoliberals who are no different than the neoconservatives.

Love, a old homeless guy who left Cisco in 1999 because he saw where all of this was going and who is currently sitting in a hotel he cannot afford because the 2002 minivan he lives in just lost its water pump.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#513

Post by thegrim33 »

techblueberry wrote: post #432
JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

I know this is weird, but I'm in some ways not really sure who is on the side of freedom here. I get your position, but like. The whole idea of the promise of the internet has been destroyed by newsfeeds and mega-corps. There is almost literally documented examples of Facebook executives twirling their mustaches wondering how they can get kids more addicted. This isn't a few bands with swear words, and in fact, I thi…

Nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to use Facebook or whatever other site. I quit using most social media over a decade ago. If you don't want to use it, or you don't want your children to use it, then don't use it.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#514

Post by Ginden »

"Age-restriction laws push platforms toward intrusive verification systems that often directly conflict with modern data-privacy law" - when you make rules contradictory, someone always violate these laws, and you can use selective persecution to "convince" companies to favor you, the incumbent politician. You don't even have to use such power, just a "joke" may be enough to send have any rational CEO licking your shoes.

European proponents of "anti-big-tech action" make it pretty explicit - broad discretionary power should be given to executive branch, because otherwise "international corporations" will use "loopholes" (and these "loopholes" are, in practice, explicitly written laws used as intended).

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#515

Post by chris37879 »

techblueberry wrote: post #432
JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

I know this is weird, but I'm in some ways not really sure who is on the side of freedom here. I get your position, but like. The whole idea of the promise of the internet has been destroyed by newsfeeds and mega-corps. There is almost literally documented examples of Facebook executives twirling their mustaches wondering how they can get kids more addicted. This isn't a few bands with swear words, and in fact, I thi…

Those execs were also using the tactics to addict adults, and while they may have targeted teens, the problem is, at its core: humans. So no amount of nannying by either the company nor the government will solve this issue.

Who would be responsible if a child developed alcohol addiction? A nicotine problem? Any other addiction?

Exactly. The same people that should be responsible for giving them unfettered access to an internet that is no longer safe. Even adults have to be wary of getting hooked on scrolling, and while I agree that the onus is on the companies, it has been demonstrated over and over again that they will not be held to account for their behavior.

So the only logical choice left that actually preserves freedom is for parents to get off their ass and keep their child safe. Parent's that don't use filtering and monitoring software with their children should be charged with neglect. They are for sending a kid into the cold without a coat, or letting them go hungry, why is it different sending them onto the internet?

And to your last point: You are dead wrong. No government anywhere in the world has demonstrated that they have the resources, expertise, or technical knowledge to solve this problem. The most famously successful attempt is the Chinese Great Firewall, which is breached routinely by folks. As soon as a government controls what speech you are allowed to consume, the next logical step for them is to restrict what speech you can say, because waging war on what people access will always fail. I mean, Facebook alone already contains tons of content that's against its terms of service, and they have more money than God, so either they actually want that content there, or they are too understaffed to deal with the volume, and the volume problem only ever increases.

So in my view, you are the one against freedom by advocating for the government to control the speech adults can access for the sake of "protecting the children" when the actual people that are socially, morally, and legally culpable for that protection are derelict in their duties.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#516

Post by kylecordes »

"Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection"

That's the whole point, right? A pretense to remove any remaining anonymity from communications?

Governments are endlessly infested with the worst people. They look back at historical attempts at totalitarianism and think to themselves, "Let's facilitate something like that, but worse".

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#517

Post by techblueberry »

chris37879 wrote: post #515
techblueberry wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is weird, but I'm in some ways not really sure who is on the side of freedom here. I get your position, but like. The whole idea of the promise of the internet has been destroyed by newsfeeds and mega-corps. There is almost literally documented examples of Facebook executives twirling their mustaches wondering how they can get kids more addicted. This isn't a few bands with swear words, and in fact, I thi…

Those execs were also using the tactics to addict adults, and while they may have targeted teens, the problem is, at its core: humans. So no amount of nannying by either the company nor the government will solve this issue. Who would be responsible if a child developed alcohol addiction? A nicotine problem? Any other addiction? Exactly. The same people that should be responsible for giving them unfettered access to a…

> Who would be responsible if a child developed alcohol addiction? A nicotine problem? Any other addiction?

I mean, historically speaking, we blamed the tobacco companies.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#518

Post by coffeefirst »

subscribed wrote: post #473
coffeefirst wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s some nuance here. Realizing that much of the internet is totally toxic to children now and should have a means of keeping them out is distinct from agreeing to upload ID to everything. A better implementation would be to have a device/login level parental control setting that passed age restriction signals via browsers and App Stores. This is both a simpler design and privacy friendly.

This also means the only operating systems allowing access to the internet will be these with the immense surveillance and ad-infested.

Not at all. You require websites to respect the signal of its set just like GPC. If there’s no signal it fails open. And if a kid installs Linux and sets the signal themselves, well, who cares, they can also sneak into R rated movies. It’s enough friction to kill the ubiquity.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#519

Post by CobrastanJorji »

JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

You're understating the US's policy on recklessness. We have "attractive nuisances," which means that if you put a trampoline in your backyard, and a kid passing through sees it, decides to do a sick jump off of it, and breaks their leg, that was partly your fault for having something so awesome that kids would probably like.
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