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Statement by Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, the Netherlands,Norway,Sweden,UK

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Re: Statement by Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, the Netherlands,Norway,Sweden,UK

#511

Post by ben_w »

yongjik wrote: post #505
ben_w wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, I'd say terms rather than generations. I mean, I'm old enough to remember people saying "Never Forget" about 9/11, but it's barely in any discourse at this point, and that was a single generation ago and had two major wars a bunch of PoW scandals, war crime scandals that led to Manning, and domestic surveillance that led to Snowden. And yet, despite all that, I've only heard 9/11 mentioned exactly once…

It's different. 9/11 was an outside foe, which was dismantled by US forces, and its leader was executed. America "won" against the perpetrators of 9/11 in the conventional sense. You cannot defeat MAGA the same way: the "enemies" are among us, and they aren't going anywhere.

From my point of view as a European asking if myself if or when I will be able to trust the USA in the future, the Taliban is to Afghanistan as MAGA is to the USA.

You're the outsider, to me. The pre-9/11 Taliban were seen as "kinda weird but we can do deals, oh dear aren't they awful, never mind", the post-9/11 were not even worthy of talking to. The USA is currently in a similar "pre" state, an invasion would make it a "post" state.

Re: Statement by Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, the Netherlands,Norway,Sweden,UK

#512

Post by Sabinus »

rpiguy wrote: post #457
Sabinus wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you vote for Trump? Do you approve of the immigration enforcement? Do you approve of the tariff antics? Do you approve of Trump torching American reputation with her allies? Was Jan 6 an attempt to interrupt the peaceful transfer of power? Would you vote for Trump again?

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes, but they were morons No, not without an amendment allowing a third term, but even if there were an amendment probably still a No because he is too old and his very blunt and impolitic manner is not sustainable long-term in national leadership. According to the WSJ, thr President has lost about 8% of his voters, so he should make some adjustments. WSJ POLL: 92% of people who voted for Trump in 202…

>Yes, but they were morons [for trying Jan 6]

Do you agree that Trump instigated and directed the insurrection attempt as evidenced by him sending people to the Capitol, and making threatening phone calls to Senators while the mob advanced through the Capitol and the Senators and others begged him to tell the mob to go home?

Re: Statement by Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, the Netherlands,Norway,Sweden,UK

#513

Post by EastLondonCoder »

kcplate wrote: post #488
hypeatei wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because an agency supposedly meant for "immigration enforcement" being sent to cities of the President's opponents so they can crackdown on protests and harass citizens is different... how? Is being persecuted for your religion worse than being persecuted for your political beliefs? There is a secret police force actively patrolling the streets, going door-to-door asking for papers, shooting American citizens…

[flagged]

This frames escalation as if it’s an inevitable byproduct of “not cooperating,” but that’s a choice. Sanctuary policies generally limit voluntary local participation (e.g., detainers without judicial warrants), they don’t “block” federal enforcement.

“If you don’t want door-to-door, cooperate” is basically saying federal agencies get to punish jurisdictions for lawful policy choices by switching to more coercive tactics. That’s not normal enforcement; it’s politicized leverage. And once you normalize that logic, it won’t stay confined to immigration.

Re: Statement by Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, the Netherlands,Norway,Sweden,UK

#514

Post by okanat »

yetihehe wrote: post #139
bflesch wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't worry, you're either arguing with useful idiots or pathetic SOBs working in a propaganda unit in russia.

The problem is that if no one responds to such idiots, even more idiots might be swayed into their direction.

You are not going to change somebody's opinion if they submit to Twitter discourse. Not even getting screwed personally would change their opinion. Hard right wingers at any time in history learn in only one way.

Re: Statement by Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, the Netherlands,Norway,Sweden,UK

#515

Post by rpiguy »

Sabinus wrote: post #512
rpiguy wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes, but they were morons No, not without an amendment allowing a third term, but even if there were an amendment probably still a No because he is too old and his very blunt and impolitic manner is not sustainable long-term in national leadership. According to the WSJ, thr President has lost about 8% of his voters, so he should make some adjustments. WSJ POLL: 92% of people who voted for Trump in 202…

>Yes, but they were morons [for trying Jan 6] Do you agree that Trump instigated and directed the insurrection attempt as evidenced by him sending people to the Capitol, and making threatening phone calls to Senators while the mob advanced through the Capitol and the Senators and others begged him to tell the mob to go home?

I don’t wholly agree with that statement. He repeatedly asked for people to remain peaceful in the run up to J6.

Even in his infamous 70 minute speech on the day of (which by the way was still going when most of the protestors were already at the capitol) where he called on people to “fight like hell” he called for peaceful demonstration.

“I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.”

He did not call any senators. He called McCarthy and had a very heated conversation and when McCarthy told him to call off the protestors immediately the President barked back that he believed Antifa breached the capital, not his supporters (not true but that’s what the President believed at the time).

Re: Statement by Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, the Netherlands,Norway,Sweden,UK

#516

Post by fatbird »

ben_w wrote: post #437
fatbird wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump's passing and his admin getting tossed won't erase the memory that a good third of America was always happy with him and wanted what he actually did. America is now branded with MAGA in a way that will take generations to fade.

At this point, I'd say terms rather than generations. I mean, I'm old enough to remember people saying "Never Forget" about 9/11, but it's barely in any discourse at this point, and that was a single generation ago and had two major wars a bunch of PoW scandals, war crime scandals that led to Manning, and domestic surveillance that led to Snowden. And yet, despite all that, I've only heard 9/11 mentioned exactly once…

There's how the people in general remember, and then there's how the politicians and the institutions remember. If nothing else, the changes in institutions will have effects reverberating for decades, with the most obvious institution being the military in each country that expected to fight a war under a NATO umbrella with an American general in charge.

If I'm a German or French or Swedish officer, especially if I'm suddenly in Greenland, I'm going to be thinking hard about the changes to come in the next few years so that they're not all dependent upon a friendly America. If nothing else, they're all getting ready now to operate without any Americans in the loop, since it might be Americans they're fighting. That means the entire NATO command structure, which presumes American dominance of it, is now an obstacle to avoid rather than a resource to share. Every PM is asking the head of their air force if they can fly their F-35s without the Americans knowing about it and possibly shutting them down remotely.

There's a story going around today in French newspapers about how French and Ukrainian intelligence fed US intelligence some false strategic info to see if it ended up in Russian hands, which it did within days. Now Ukraine is consciously breaking its relationship with US intelligence because it can't be trusted, while getting closer to French and German intelligence. I suspect that the UK is also carefully looking at what's shared via the Five Eyes and decided what it can/needs to withhold.

Re: Statement by Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, the Netherlands,Norway,Sweden,UK

#518

Post by bcye »

m000 wrote: post #172

Since Trump can't walk away from NATO [1], could the claim on Greenland be a ruse to force the de-facto resolution of NATO? He probably sees Europe as too meek to do anything more dramatic/substantial. And believes that without NATO, Europe would buy more US weapons that they now get "for free". [1] https://www.dirittoue.info/u-s-legislation-restricts-preside...

I'm not sure how attacking Greenland would accomplish the goal of more European spending on US weapons.

Re: Statement by Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, the Netherlands,Norway,Sweden,UK

#519

Post by baubino »

kcplate wrote: post #504
hypeatei wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pretending that this is merely federal agents enforcing immigration laws is delusion. Thousands of agents being sent to one city and hundreds more promised after backlash is not immigration enforcement, it's punishment for dissent. > If you don’t want the door to door enforcement, have your local officials become cooperative in enforcing the immigration laws Since when did States need to "cooperate" with federal…

If you don’t like a law, change it. If your representatives are not representing you, elect new representatives who will. If you don’t want immigration enforcement, don’t elect someone who ran on that platform. And, no…I do not believe that our enforcing immigration laws that were passed in a bi-partisan and supported as is by presidents from both parties and enforced by presidents from both parties are in any way, s…

It doesn’t have to be equivalent to still be bad.

Re: Statement by Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, the Netherlands,Norway,Sweden,UK

#520

Post by rstuart4133 »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #317
oliwarner wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has some grace here as most of the negative feelings towards it dies with it's government. You're going to pick better next time, right?

Except that everyone can see that the US is capable of putting this kind of government into power, and could do so again and again.

Exactly. The fixes that would go some way to restore my trust are changed to the mechanisms surrounding the democratic process. Things like no more gerrymander, get rid of allowing corporations influencing the voting by flooding the system with money, somehow fix social media every ad is seen by everyone rather than allowing personalised lies be shown to specific voters, fix your electronic voting systems to a maintenance man with a screwdriver can't make new votes pop into existence (as happened once), stop disenfranchising voters - even to the extend of implementing compulsory voting. The distortions the USA allows now to the democratic process are beyond belief.

Oh, and a system that allows a politician to incite a mob to attack the sitting parliament, and get away without punishment, then pardon the perps is a joke.

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