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Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

theguardian.com

511–520 of 586 posts

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#511
post #311

Ryanair: Cutting cost at all cost

Yup. They also popularised excessive baggage under the seat, and I routinely used to see obvious hazards that would impede an evacuation. Staff would turn a blind eye. Probably still do

Further, with the baggage being there in easy reach under the seat, I reckon people would be more tempted to take it with them when evacuating.

That they're are a safe airline seems to be incredible luck - they have all the components for it not to be.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#512

That is very exceptional. I've written fuel estimation software for airliners (cargo, fortunately), and the number of rules regarding go-arounds, alternates and holding time resulted in there usually being quite a bit of fuel in the tanks on landing, by design. I've never heard of '6 minutes left' in practice where it wasn't a massive issue and the investigation into how this could have happened will make for interes…

The context you're missing is that Ryanair have routinely declared fuel emergencies in the past, and it seems an operational tactic - they want to carry less fuel to burn less fuel, and then have to regularly mayday to jump the stack on inbound, saving cash. That's not covered in the article, but you can sure as hell expect the CAA are going to take another look at them and their operations planning. On this one, the…

> There are many reasons I won't fly Ryanair

I swore off them a decade ago when I realised how adversarial their relationship with their passengers is.

Until an accident does happen, I have no doubt they'll trouser a lot of cash.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#513
post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you haven't done so: please write a book. Aim it towards software professionals in non-regulated industries. I promise to buy 50 to give to all of my software developing colleagues. As for 'N', for turboprops it is 45, for jets it is 30.

I want to write more about this, but it has been a really difficult subject to structure. I gave up halfway through this article, for example, and never published it – I didn't even get around to editing it, so it's mostly bad stream of consciousness stuff: https://entropicthoughts.com/root-cause-analysis-youre-doing... I intend to come back to it some day, but I do not think that day is today.

Thanks, I would buy your book. But I understand the effort necessary all too well.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#514
post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you haven't done so: please write a book. Aim it towards software professionals in non-regulated industries. I promise to buy 50 to give to all of my software developing colleagues. As for 'N', for turboprops it is 45, for jets it is 30.

I want to write more about this, but it has been a really difficult subject to structure. I gave up halfway through this article, for example, and never published it – I didn't even get around to editing it, so it's mostly bad stream of consciousness stuff: https://entropicthoughts.com/root-cause-analysis-youre-doing... I intend to come back to it some day, but I do not think that day is today.

Write it as a children's book. A literal ELI5.

(Knowing, of course, that it will still be read mainly by engineers. But that's the charm.)

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#515
Are there any good online databases with fuel level details for individual commercial flights? I've been on a few flights that had to circle for a long time / had a number of go-round attempts, and I've never been able to find details after the fact about how close to the margins we were.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Context: because of bad weather. But I'm truly surprised (in a bad way) people on the ground couldn't solve the situation earlier. The plane was in an emergency situation for hours , wtf. Also, the airport density in the UK is high, they should have been diverted since before the first attempt, as it has happened to me and thousands of flights every single day around the world.

The incident investigation will surely focus on exactly those things. But: just like shipping aviation is at the mercy of the weather and even though the rules (which are written in plenty of blood) try to anticipate all of the ways in which things go wrong there is a line beyond which you are at risk. I've had one triple go-around in my life and it soured me on flying for a long time afterwards because I have writte…

There must be measurements of the fuel tanks state, right?

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#517
I wonder if the pilots considered Newcastle (or Teeside)? The METARs showed favourable weather conditions at Newcastle and many planes landed there that day without issue I believe. Also far closer to Edinburgh than Manchester. I wonder if they thought that Manchester being further south, had a better chance of better weather?

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you meant turboprop there, but the distinction I notice is that one has all propulsive airflow inside the nacelle, and one does not.

Agh. No, I meant turbofan, but I misread your post and actually completely agree with you - turboprobs are not jet engines.

Ha! It happens. Enjoy your weekend.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#519

The only real question for the inquiry is how the decision was made to divert to Edinburgh and whether that was a reasonable decision at the time.

And then from Edinburgh to Manchester (184 miles) instead of Newcastle (91 miles) or Teeside (125 miles), both airports Ryanair operate out of.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#520
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naively as an outsider, this situation seems like everything worked as intended? On a nominally 2h45m flight, they spent an extra 2 hours in the air, presumably doing doing fuel intensive altitude changing maneuvers, and were eventually able to land safely with their reserves almost exhausted. I’m a little confused by what there is to investigate at all. How much fuel should they have landed with?

I'm not an aviation expert, but generally in safety engineering, safety buffers are not simply calculated as [normal situation] * [safety factor], but [worst case scenario] * [safety factor] If you ever cut into your safety allowance, you've already fucked up. Your expected design criteria should account for all use cases, nominal or worst-case. The safety factor is there for safety, it is never intended to be used.

Yes. Similarly, safety needs to be there even after the aging of materials over product lifetime. So basically when aging is the only variable to be considered end of life date is the worst case scenario.
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