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German government comes out against Chat Control

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Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>It IS your salary. If the employer didn't pay it, YOU would have to pay it anyway. So if the government reduced the share that the employers pay down to zero tomorrow, would you then go to your partner/family/friends and say "hey, I just got a paycut at work" ?

When you are negotiating payment for any good and service, you care only what the end cost is to you. It doesn't matter how you decide to slice it - "this share you pay, this share I pay" at the end of the day it will be seen through the lens of Total Cost of Ownership.

I like how you didn't answer my question. If you don't see it as a paycut then it's not part of your salary.

>>you care only what the end cost is to you.

Yes, so I care what my salary is. What the employer has to legally pay to employ me is literally irrelevant other than academically. It's not my salary, the same how their cost of maintaining an office or providing me with equipment to do my job isn't my salary.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well obviously, yes, but again, I don't know anyone who looks at it this way. If your salary is £100k and you know your effective tax rate is 35% then you're taking home £65k a year. I don't know how much on top of that my employer is paying in contributions, if it's another £100k on top or zero - and frankly I don't really care? The negotiated salary is £100k/pa and that's what anyone uses as a number of their compe…

No, I'm sorry but this is just pointless, arguing about some technicality like "you can't call that income". That doesn't matter, these are just words. What matters in real life is the size of the cut the government gets from the employee-employer transaction. That cut definitely includes all the "employer contributions". The bigger it is, the less the employee gets. And no, it's not the same as the cost of buying th…

>>That doesn't matter, these are just words.

Except it isn't, because you keep doing this to pretend like you're paying 50% of your salary in taxes which just isn't true. No one advertises a job as "pays €60k a year" and then you find out it includes the employer contribution too so actually your salary is more like €40k. If anyone did that you'd call it fraudulent.

>>I'll go to my boss directly and say that "my income is now smaller than it should be" and ask for increase in gross

......why? You are paid exactly what you agreed to be paid. If your employer negotiated cheaper electricity deal for the office would you go and ask for a raise too?

>>The bigger it is, the less the employee gets

Again, why? The company would just pocket the money and not pay you more. I honestly don't see why they would.

>>In general, I pay more attention to what people do, not what they say

But this is a comments section on hacker news - discussion is the entire point.

But look, we just aren't going to agree on this. I just never met anyone in my life who would consider their employer's legal obligations paid directly to the state as part of their salary - if you do that's cool, I have no interest in making you change that view, we're two random strangers on the internet.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They voted to ban the terms vegan sausage and vegan burger just earlier today. So much about being pro free speech. Votes by party affiliation and name to verify this can be accessed here: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/PV-10-2025-10-...

As an American currently in Germany, the food situation is soooo much better here and they would do well to not allow incorrect or misleading labels on consumer products. I understand what you’re saying about censorship, but this is a pretty weak example, IMO. We had something similar in the US with attempts to ban the word “milk” from “almond milk” [0]. Are there other examples that are more egregious? [0] https://a…

I dont understand that view : peanut butter, coconut milk, cacao butter and plenty, plenty others exemples exist probably since languages apparition. A vegetal burger shouldn’t be called beef burger obviously but we all know what almond milk means. The misleading argument isn’t serious but an attempt to block a cultural changes some don’t like or profit from.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#514

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> The lack of energy security is because the Red/Greens convinced everywhere except France (go Framatome!) to give up nuclear. I wonder why resource rich Russia would push such an outcome... This is completely untrue. The Atomaustieg happened under Merkel (CDU) and was catalyzed by Fukushima. That's democracy, for you, btw. The current energy "crisis" was due to idiotic trust (CDU/SPD) in Russia's goodwill and conseq…

> This is completely untrue. The Atomaustieg happened under Merkel (CDU) and was catalyzed by Fukushima. That's democracy, for you, btw. So, when the government does something populistic (with majority support) that is bad for the country, it's a democracy. But when the government refuses to do something populistic (with majority support) that is good for the country, that's also democracy. Looks like our democracy #…

I suggest you read the German constitution, if you have questions about these sort of things.

https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/BJNR000010949.html

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#515
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Verfassungsschutz is anything but objective. And even if: They don't at all claim that the AfD plans a "fascist takeover". I've read the whole report. Did you?

Sure. That is why the former boss had to step down. But by now they surely weeded out all the nazi sympathisers? Are you aware of the NSU case? "They don't at all claim that the AfD plans a "fascist takeover"" But no, they don't claim that. They claim parts of the AfD plan a fascist takeover.

they also don’t claim the last thing.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#516
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. That is why the former boss had to step down. But by now they surely weeded out all the nazi sympathisers? Are you aware of the NSU case? "They don't at all claim that the AfD plans a "fascist takeover"" But no, they don't claim that. They claim parts of the AfD plan a fascist takeover.

they also don’t claim the last thing.

"https://netzpolitik.org/2025/verdachtsfall-rechtsextremismus..."

Then maybe read again.

"Der Verfassungsschutz belegt Bestrebungen gegen das Demokratieprinzip in der AfD. Auf allen Ebenen der Partei wird demnach die demokratische Nachkriegsentwicklung der Bundesrepublik diffamiert sowie der Staat und die Parteien verunglimpft. „Gewichtigen Teilen der Partei“ geht es „nicht mehr um eine scharfe kritische Auseinandersetzung in der Sache“. Stattdessen soll das Vertrauen in die verfassungsmäßige Ordnung „von Grund auf erschüttert“ werden, damit „die freiheitliche demokratische Grundordnung als Ganzes fragwürdig erscheine“.

Der Verfassungsschutz belegt Bestrebungen gegen das Rechtsstaatsprinzip in der AfD. In der Partei wird demnach die Gewaltenteilung abgelehnt, das staatliche Gewaltmonopol infrage gestellt und sich auf ein vermeintlich legitimes Widerstandsrecht berufen. Einerseits ergeben diese Aussagen laut Gutachten „kein verfestigtes Bild innerhalb der Gesamtpartei“. Andererseits wäre die Verwirklichung der „menschenwürdewidrigen und diskriminierenden Vorstellungen letztlich nicht ohne eine Verletzung des Rechtsstaatsprinzips umsetzbar“."

"Bei einer Kundgebung in Merseburg (ST) am 25. Mai 2020 konstatierte Daniel Wald (MdL, ST), dass im Zuge der Corona-Maßnahmen eine „Gesundheitsdiktatur“ errichtet worden sei, gegen die er zum Widerstand aufrief:

    „Die Not unseres Volkes fordert nicht mehr nur Worte, sondern endlich Taten. Wir sind deshalb keine Verschwörungstheoretiker. Im Gegenteil: Wir sind Verschwörer. Wir verschwören uns als Bürger, als echte Opposition, als ganzes Volk gegen den Komplex aus Systemmedien, Gewerkschaften und Altparteienfilz, die sich unseren Staat schon längst zur Beute gemacht haben. Wir, die AfD, stehen dabei an der Spitze des Widerstands, bis in diesem Volk wieder eine Politik gemacht wird, die im Dienste unseres Volkes steht.“"
There are hundreds of statement verifying their goals of a violent takeover. They don't respect any of the democratic institution. They refer positiv to Nazi germany. They are connected to the literal Nazis of today.

That is called preparing for a fascist takeover.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#517

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The first one is bad indeed, but what's so "authoritarian" about the rest? > https://www.bundestag.de/webarchiv/textarchiv/2018/kw08-de-v... Other European countries like Switzerland, also banned full face veils(burqas) in public. Try entering a bank, city hall, school, etc with a balaclava, ski mask or motorcycle helmet see how that goes. > https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/304/1930412.pdf Allowing the surveillanc…

> Taking citizenship away from those who voluntarily join terrorist organizations like ISIS? 100% agree with this, how could you not? Sounds great on paper, until it starts happening to X, which is your group, now suddenly a terrorist organization, and you happened to have joined in their view.

>until it starts happening to X, which is your group,

With that logic we shouldn't ever punish or jail criminals because you too might be a criminal one day.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm sorry but this is just pointless, arguing about some technicality like "you can't call that income". That doesn't matter, these are just words. What matters in real life is the size of the cut the government gets from the employee-employer transaction. That cut definitely includes all the "employer contributions". The bigger it is, the less the employee gets. And no, it's not the same as the cost of buying th…

>>That doesn't matter, these are just words. Except it isn't, because you keep doing this to pretend like you're paying 50% of your salary in taxes which just isn't true. No one advertises a job as "pays €60k a year" and then you find out it includes the employer contribution too so actually your salary is more like €40k. If anyone did that you'd call it fraudulent. >>I'll go to my boss directly and say that "my inco…

> Except it isn't, because you keep doing this to pretend like you're paying 50% of your salary in taxes which just isn't true. No one advertises a job as "pays €60k a year" and then you find out it includes the employer contribution too so actually your salary is more like €40k. If anyone did that you'd call it fraudulent.

You consider the world as static picture where a salary is what your contract says it is. It doesn't have to be like this. Your salary is what you contract says, but you have a certain power over what it says. Contract by itself is a derivative of the economic situation, not the source of truth.

In the end your salary is what you can negotiate and in this view you salary is heavily affected by employer contributions because it affects the negotiations. If your negotiation power increases, your salary can increase. If it drops, the company will pay you 3 months of wage, fire you and hire someone cheaper.

> ......why? You are paid exactly what you agreed to be paid.

Because I'm getting the maximum of what I can negotiate with the company. If they suddenly have more money in the people budget, I can obviously negotiate more. And if not, I'm getting a better offer elsewhere because the job market is very different now.

> If your employer negotiated cheaper electricity deal for the office would you go and ask for a raise too?

It depends, in a realistic scenario: no, because electricity is not a part of the people's budget, impact on the company profitability will be near zero and in the end this doesn't change the job market much, only affects my company locally. So counteroffer technique won't work either.

However in an imaginary case of electricity prices crashing all across the country overnight making businesses more profitable: yes, I think I'll try to negotiate a raise.

> Again, why? The company would just pocket the money and not pay you more. I honestly don't see why they would.

It depends on how hard it is to replace you. Effectively there's new money on the table and you'll split that money with your employer. If you're hard to replace, you'll take the bigger cut or even all of it. If you're easy to replace, you get zero or else they'll get someone else who agrees to get zero.

> But look, we just aren't going to agree on this. I just never met anyone in my life who would consider their employer's legal obligations paid directly to the state as part of their salary - if you do that's cool, I have no interest in making you change that view, we're two random strangers on the internet.

Of course, we argue for the pleasure of it but I think our intentions are different. I don't have a goal of changing your definition of words -- you can keep the ones you like. However I think it's worth trying to change your world view. My suggestion: try thinking of your salary (if you're a hired worker) as something you can negotiate not something set in stone (you can call it $alary if you like). Twice in my career I approached my employer with an external offer and twice I got a 2x counter-offer. They didn't say "You are paid exactly what you agreed to be paid", it's not how it works.

You need to play it well but it's an extremely strong negotiation technique. There are others but they're more complicated to execute so I suggest to start with this one.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#519
post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you should tie the squatter, drive him to the middle of wilderness, and leave him there. So he will no longer have such bad ideas.

What exactly does that entail, outside of the analogy and in the real world, in the context of Chat Control legislation?

Promote a better constitution that protects people from laws like this?

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Many German political parties have extremist elements in them. No, they don't. Extreme in this context is defined as anti-democratic, those who want to dismantle the system at its foundation and destroy democracy, usually while removing certain groups. That's not something other parties aim for. Sure, they want to change the system, but only to improve the democratic. > but not okay calling out the far left There a…

I'm sorry you don't understand the anti-democratic goals of many of the parties in your own country.

If you are re-branding a belief in authoritarian seizing of all private capital as "Minor democratic arguments on details of the economic system" then it's obvious you either don't know the constituents of the political coalitions in most major European countries, or are not arguing in good faith.

Just like the actual extreme right, the entire goal of any left extremist (eg. your communists, eco-terrorists, anti-tech doomers, etc.) is to dismantle democratic freedoms and enforce their unpopular agenda via absolute authority.

The bolsheviks never ran on the idea they would brutally murder middle class families and seize their assets. This was just an inevitable step necessary to achieve their 'utopia.'

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