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Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

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Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#511

Post by devmor »

lxgr wrote: post #376
devmor wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of internet payments work this way already anyways, not many gateways require auth before capture, processors/payfacs just do it because it gives lower interchange and reduces risk.

What gateways are you thinking of? Effectively all international card networks require online authorizations for almost everything.

The way gateways and networks handle auth are not the same thing and it gets really muddy and confusing, honestly.

If you’ve already tokenized the card on a gateway for a particular merchant, for example, they may allow you to keep pushing multiple charges while on their end still using the original network auth from the first tokenization - which ends up being entirely opaque to you, the client of the gateway.

Essentially you don’t have to care what the card network rules are, just how your gateway presents functionality to you.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#513

Post by devmor »

hakfoo wrote: post #295
devmor wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of internet payments work this way already anyways, not many gateways require auth before capture, processors/payfacs just do it because it gives lower interchange and reduces risk.

A lot of the time, that's still API smoke and mirrors. The API call is labelled "sale", but it performs an auth and at the end of the day the system still generates a capture or settlement-style message.

To an extent, yes. But functionally it doesn’t matter to the client of the gateway (or their downstream users, the cardholders).

If the gateway allows you to complete a sale request at 7am that doesn’t start an auth until 9pm, you have an offline payment by any other name.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#514

Post by 0xWTF »

lxgr wrote: post #499
silverliver wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We know exactly how to do these things digitally. Many European countries have had stored-value payment schemes in the 90s. Japan still does today. But how do they prevent people double spending the same amount? Say someone has 100$ and boards on a plane. During the trip, this person buys a bag of potato chips sold for 90$. At the same time, his bank account is automatically charged 90$ for a bill. With credit card…

> But how do they prevent people double spending the same amount? Both payment cards and merchant terminals (essentially also using embedded or removable smartcards) are tamper-resistant and hold symmetric keys only known to the payment scheme or issuer. The terminal essentially creates a cryptographic secure channel between two smartcards, and they transactionally agree to decrement the balance on one, and increment…

That works with a network. But as the period of disconnection grows, the uncertainty grows.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#515

Post by bornfreddy »

lxgr wrote: post #499
silverliver wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We know exactly how to do these things digitally. Many European countries have had stored-value payment schemes in the 90s. Japan still does today. But how do they prevent people double spending the same amount? Say someone has 100$ and boards on a plane. During the trip, this person buys a bag of potato chips sold for 90$. At the same time, his bank account is automatically charged 90$ for a bill. With credit card…

> But how do they prevent people double spending the same amount? Both payment cards and merchant terminals (essentially also using embedded or removable smartcards) are tamper-resistant and hold symmetric keys only known to the payment scheme or issuer. The terminal essentially creates a cryptographic secure channel between two smartcards, and they transactionally agree to decrement the balance on one, and increment…

Iiuc, you have to "transfer" the funds from your bank account to the card device (wallet, in a way) from where you can then spend these funds without interaction with the bank? That would work.

Otherwise, without the initial withdrawal from your bank account, you could spend the money twice.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#516

Post by buzer »

reaperducer wrote: post #491
buzer wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Finland, and I imagine in most of Europe in general, people just make bank transfers for most of those things. Unlike in USA you cannot just pull cash from someone's account if you know their bank account number, you need to setup SEPA Direct Debit to do that and it requires explicit authorization from the account owner. It isn't even really used much in Finland, most companies just send electronic invoices that y…

Unlike in USA you cannot just pull cash from someone's account if you know their bank account number People say things like this as if the money taken in a fraudulent transaction just disappears and is untraceable, and unrecoverable. That is false. It's one of those scare tactics that the middlemen use to sell a vision of financial-techno-secure-utopianism in order to collect a percentage of the money. Don't fall for…

> The money has to go somewhere: Into another bank account, usually, which is easily traceable since banks by law have to know who they're dealing with.

Yes but you actually need to notice that it happened which requires them to actively monitor their transactions on all of their accounts. They then need to use their own time to report these transactions and wait for banks to resolve it. And that's just in the good case where bank doesn't dispute it. If they do, you now need to file official complaint with regulators or sue them. Former can probably be done by highly educated people by themselves (others likely need some legal help), in latter case you are going to need a lawyer. I'm not even sure if you are eligible to recover costs for those.

Why is this better than just not allowing pulls without explicit authorization by the consumer (SEPA Direct Debit) or just asking consumer to actually send the funds (bank transfer)?

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#517

Post by lostlogin »

reaperducer wrote: post #470
lostlogin wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd assume they would pay wages, minus the court pay. Given how badly jury duty pays, it seems a wasted effort.

Given how badly jury duty pays, it seems a wasted effort. It seems to vary from county to county. When I served, we were given a pamphlet stating that the rate had recently been raised. I don't remember the exact figure, but it was well above minimum wage. Something like $80 for the first and last day, plus $120 for each day between, plus transportation costs. Far less than what I make as a super cool tech dev bro, b…

> Something like $80 for the first and last day, plus $120 for each day between, plus transportation costs

Was this recent? The highest daily rate there is $15 per hour.

I’m in New Zealand and that’s fractionally more than minimum wage.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#518

Post by lxgr »

bornfreddy wrote: post #515
lxgr wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But how do they prevent people double spending the same amount? Both payment cards and merchant terminals (essentially also using embedded or removable smartcards) are tamper-resistant and hold symmetric keys only known to the payment scheme or issuer. The terminal essentially creates a cryptographic secure channel between two smartcards, and they transactionally agree to decrement the balance on one, and increment…

Iiuc, you have to "transfer" the funds from your bank account to the card device (wallet, in a way) from where you can then spend these funds without interaction with the bank? That would work. Otherwise, without the initial withdrawal from your bank account, you could spend the money twice.

Yes, only the issuer of the stored-value system can “create” funds, and they need to ensure that they do get paid for it without double spending.

That can be done using cash at a machine, with an online-authorized card transaction etc.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#519

Post by lxgr »

0xWTF wrote: post #514
lxgr wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But how do they prevent people double spending the same amount? Both payment cards and merchant terminals (essentially also using embedded or removable smartcards) are tamper-resistant and hold symmetric keys only known to the payment scheme or issuer. The terminal essentially creates a cryptographic secure channel between two smartcards, and they transactionally agree to decrement the balance on one, and increment…

That works with a network. But as the period of disconnection grows, the uncertainty grows.

Yes, you’ll definitely want to avoid running such a system completely offline without bounds.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#520

Post by Symbiote »

lxgr wrote: post #501
lstodd wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well while seats do have a passenger name to them, people end up in interesting places on underbooked long flights like over the Atlantic. Cabin crew sometimes gets excited if people move too much. But this is rare.

Especially when expensive in-flight shopping is involved, I'd expect cabin crews to become even more interested in wandering passengers.

I've once seen the cabin crew ask to see a passenger's boarding pass while they were paying.

The novelty was more that this was the first time I'd seen anyone buy the expensive perfume, I don't remember any more.

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