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Why are there so many rationalist cults?

asteriskmag.com

511–520 of 947 posts

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#511
post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah "Transubstantiation" is another technical term people might want to look at in this topic. The art piece "An Oak Tree" is a comment on these ideas. It's a glass of water. But, the artist's notes for this work insist it is an oak tree.

Interesting you bring art into the discussion. Often thought that some "artists" have a lot in common with cult leaders. My definition of art would be that is immediately understood, zero explanation needed.

I definitely can't get behind that definition. The one I've used for a good while is: The unnecessary done on purpose.

Take Barbara Hepworth's "Two Figures" a sculpture which is just sat there on the campus where I studied for many years (and where I also happen to work today). What's going on there? I'm not sure.

Sculpture of ideals I get. Liberty, stood on her island, Justice (with or without her blindfold, but always carrying not only the scales but also a sword†). I used to spend a lot of time in the hall where "The Meeting Place" is. They're not specific people, they're an idea, they're the spirit of the purpose of this place (a railway station, in fact a major international terminus). That's immediately understood, yeah.

But I did not receive an immediate understanding of "Two figures". It's an interesting piece. I still occasionally stop and look at it as I walk across the campus, but I couldn't summarise it in a sentence even now.

† when you look at that cartoon of the GOP operatives with their hands over Justice's mouth, keep in mind that out of shot she has a sword. Nobody gets out of here alive.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#512

Here are some other anti-lesswrong materials to consider: https://aiascendant.com/p/extropias-children-chapter-1-the-w... https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2023/02/06/ineffective-... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-03-07/effective... https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23458282/effective-altrui... https://qchu.substack.com/p/eliezer https://x.com/kanzure/status/1726251316513841539

Note that Asterisk magazine is basically the unofficial magazine for the rationalism community and the author is a rationalist blogger who is naturally very pro-LessWrong. This piece is not anti-Yudkowsky or anti-LessWrong.

Here's a counter-piece on David Gerard and his portrayal of LessWrong and Effective Altruism: https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/reliable-sources-how-wik...

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#513

> Many of them also expect that, without heroic effort, AGI development will lead to human extinction. Odd to me. Not biological warfare? Global warming? All-out nuclear war? I guess The Terminator was a formative experience for them. (For me perhaps it was The Andromeda Strain .)

Most in the community consider nuclear and biological threats to be dire. Many just consider existential threats from AI to be even more probable and damaging.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#514
post #398

A very interesting read. My idea of these self-proclaimed rationalists was fifteen years out of date. I thought they’re people who write wordy fan fiction, but turns out they’ve reached the point of having subgroups that kill people and exorcise demons. This must be how people who had read one Hubbard pulp novel in the 1950s felt decades later when they find out he’s running a full-blown religion now. The article see…

[flagged]

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article attempts to establish disjoint categories "good rationalist" and "cultist." Its authorship, and its appearance in the cope publication of the "please take us seriously" rationalist faction, speak volumes of how well it is likely to succeed in that project.

Not sure why you got down voted for this. The opening paragraph of the article reads as suspicious to the observant outsider: >The rationalist community was drawn together by AI researcher Eliezer Yudkowsky’s blog post series The Sequences, a set of essays about how to think more rationally. Anyone who had just read a lot about Scientology would read that and have alarm bells ringing.

Asterisk magazine is basically the unofficial magazine for the rationalist community and the author, Ozy Brennan, is a prominent rationalist blogger. Of course the piece is pro-rationalism. It's investigating why rationalism seems to spawn these small cultish offshoots, not trying to criticize rationalism.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The reason why people can't be bothered to get formal training is that modern philosophy doesn't seem that useful. But rationalism is?

Yeh, probably. Imagine that you're living in a big scary world, and there's someone there telling you that being scared isn't particularly useful, that if you slow down and think about the things happening to you, most of your worries will become tractable and some will even disappear. It probably works at first. Then they sic Roko's Basilisk on you, and you're a gibbering lunatic 2 weeks later...

Hah

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#517
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> non-rationalists do at least benefit from some intellectual humility The Islamists who took out the World Trade Center don’t strike me as particularly intellectually humble. If you reject reason, you are only left with force.

Islamic fundamentalism and cult rationalism are both involved in a “total commitment”, “all or nothing” type of thinking. The former is totally committed to a particular literal reading of scripture, the latter, to logical deduction from a set of chosen premises. Both modes of thinking have produced violent outcomes in the past. Skepticism, in which no premise or truth claim is regarded as above dispute (or, that it…

True skepticism is rare. It's easy to be skeptical only about beliefs you dislike or at least don't care about. It's hard to approach the 100th self-professed psychic with an honest intention to truly test their claims rather than to find the easiest way to ridicule them.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#518
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s just (or even particularly) bad axioms, I think it’s that people tend to build up “logical” conclusions where they think each step is a watertight necessity that follows inevitably from its antecedents, but actually each step is a little bit leaky, leading to runaway growth in false confidence. Not that non-rationalists are any better at reasoning, but non-rationalists do at least benefit from some…

> I think it’s that people tend to build up “logical” conclusions where they think each step is a watertight necessity that follows inevitably from its antecedents, but actually each step is a little bit leaky, leading to runaway growth in false confidence. Yeah, this is a pattern I've seen a lot of recently—especially in discussions about LLMs and the supposed inevitability of AGI (and the Singularity). This is a go…

You might have just explained the phenomenon of AI doomsayers overlapping with ea/rat types, which I otherwise found inexplicable. EA/Rs seem kind of appalingly positivist otherwise.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#519
post #231

It's amphetamine. All of these people are constantly tweaking. They're annoying people to begin with, but they're all constantly yakked up and won't stop babbling. It's really obvious, I don't know why it isn't highlighted more in all these post Ziz articles.

Yeah it's pretty obvious and not surprising. What do people expect when a bunch of socially inept nerds with weird unchallenged world views start doing uppers? lol

I like to characterize the culture of each (roughly) decade with the most popular drugs of the time. It really gives you a new lens for media and culture generation.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#520
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

having known dozens of friends, family, roommates, coworkers etc both before and after they started them. The two biggest telltale signs - 1. tendency to produce - out of no necessity whatsoever, mind - walls of text. walls of speech will happen too but not everyone rambles. 2. Obnoxiously confident that they're fundamentally correct about whatever position they happen to be holding during a conversation with you. No…

I call this “diarrhea of the mind”. It’s what happens when you hear a steady stream of bullshit from someone’s mouth. It definitely tracks with substance abuse of “uppers”, aka meth, blow, hell even caffeine!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logorrhea_(psychology)
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